My kids’ friend Alex Smiley, 13 years old, died of Leukemia last week. This week has been a time when most of us feel deep and pressing questions. Why did God make the world the way he did?
I have a story for you.
It’s from the book of 2 Esdras, which is in the Apocrypha – the books from the Catholic Bible between the Old and New Testaments.
Most people aren’t familiar with the Apocrypha. But having read most of it, I would suggest to you that it’s worth at least as much attention as the latest Christian title by Rick Warren, John Eldredge or Bill Johnson.
The prophet Esdras (Ezra) comes to God in great sorrow over the suffering of his people and he says:
“Perhaps those in Babylon lead better lives, and that is why they have conquered Zion. But when I arrived here, I saw more wickedness than I could reckon, and these thirty years I have seen many evildoers with my own eyes.
“My heart sank, because I saw how you tolerate sinners and spare the godless; how you have destroyed your own people, but protected your enemies. You have given no hint whatever to anyone how to understand your ways. Is Babylon more virtuous than Zion?
“Weigh our sins in the balance against the sins of the rest of the world; and it will be clear which way the scale tips.”
In other words:
“God, if you treated your people a little better, you’d probably have more friends.”
An angel is sent to him, whose name is Uriel. He replies to Ezra:
“I have been sent to propound to you three of the ways of this world,” he continued, “to give you three illustrations. If you can explain to me any one of them, then I will answer your question about the way of the Most High, and teach you why the heart is wicked.”
The angel presents him with this question:
“Weigh me a pound of fire, measure me a bushel of wind, or call back a day that has passed.”
Ezra replied: “No man on earth can answer your question.”
Uriel says, “I have only asked you about fire, about wind, and about yesterday, things you have experience with; and yet you have failed to tell me the answers. Therefore I cannot answer this question for you.”
Ezra gets the point. If he can’t convert energy into matter, if he can’t store wind in a bucket, if he can’t travel through time, how can he expect to understand the deepest mysteries of God’s mind?
But Ezra still presses Uriel further: “Why has Israel been made a joke among the Gentiles; why has the people you loved been put at the mercy of godless nations? Why has the law of our fathers been brought to nothing, and the written covenants made a dead letter?
“We pass like a flight of locusts, our life is but a vapour, and we are not worth the Lord’s pity, though we bear his name; what then will he do for us? These are my questions.”
The angel replies: “The evil about which you ask me has been sown, but its reaping has not yet come. Until the crop of evil has been reaped as well as sown, until the ground where it was sown has vanished, there will be no room for the field which has been sown with the good.
“Consider this: if one grain of evil seed has produced so great a crop of godlessness, how vast a harvest will there be when good seeds beyond number have been sown!”
Ezra asks, “But WHEN? How long have we to wait? Why are our lives so short and so miserable?”
He replied, “Do not be in a greater hurry than the Most High himself. You are in a hurry for yourself alone; the Most High for many. Are not these the very questions which were asked by the righteous in the storehouse of souls: ‘How long must we stay here?’
“For the Lord has weighed the world in a balance, he has measured and numbered the ages; he will move nothing, alter nothing, until the appointed number is achieved.”
“Go,” the angel said, “Ask a pregnant woman whether she can keep the child in her womb any longer after the nine months are complete.”
“No, my lord,” Ezra said, “She cannot.”
The angel went on: “The storehouses of souls in the world below are like the womb. As a woman in travail is impatient to see the end of her labour, so they are impatient to give back all the souls committed to them since time began.”
The angel is clear: God has judged that we are not wise enough to be told the inner secrets of God’s heart. But God is equally clear that He has a plan and a time is appointed.
Good seeds have been sown. Justice WILL be carried out, and God’s people will experience a vast harvest with ALL his blessings.
Amen.
Perry Marshall
Thanks for your insight and sharring this week. We are enjoying the Arizona weather and the friendship of family with Josh, Carly, Ezra, & Eli
Perry,
I’ve been recieving mens manna for sometime now. I have really enjoyed what you have been talking about this week. My brain is stirring and interesting conversations are brewing between Carly and I. I’m going to read the Apocrypha and email you my thoughts.
Great Job!!
Joshua,
Start with Esdras, it’s a fascinating book – I barely scratched the surface. Also I really love Wisdom of Solomon.
Perry
Hi,
I’m confused. I guess you don’t really like books by Eldridge or Warren, yet you quote this book favourably and the book of Wisdom too.
I found it interesting that the earliest Christians quoted from and regarded the Apocrypha as Scripture.
Also, Jesus and the Apostles quoted almost exclusively from the Septuagint which included the Apocrypha. Justin Martyr accused the Jews of deleting those books from the Bible. He wrote about 60 years after the apostle John died.
In Christian Love,
Dave
When did I ever say I don’t really like books by Eldredge or Warren? I just said we might want to consider the apocrypha to be at least a little more important than the latest best seller. A fair statement, no?
Sorry, I got that impression since most thinking evangelicals do not like books by Warren or Eldridge.
You seem to have an old school view of the Apocrypha, which is nice. I believe the Apocrypha are an important set of books for Christians to read, and I believe that at least the book of Wisdom is inspired. I base that belief on Wisdom 2;12-20 which is one of the clearest Messianic prophecies found in the OT.
I’m not a Catholic or a Protestant though, I hold to (as much as I can understand)the Ante-Nicene faith.
God bless you brother Perry,
Dave
Dave, that is a GREAT scripture, one I had noticed before. It gives insight into the pharisees motivations. Excellent. BTW I like Eldredge a lot, I think he pretty much nails the essence of men and women.
I’ve never read Eldredge’s books. I used to like Warren’s book, and I can see why it was so popular, but it is full of Scripture twisting.
Have you ever come across the teachings of David Bercot (www.ScrollPublishing)? He used to have an excellent teaching on the Apocrypha, but he doesn’t sell it anymore. But he still has many good sermons on Bible translations, and manuscripts. He argues from the point of the Early Church teachings as opposed to modern day theology. I was very surprised to see how different we believe on things today.
If you read “Faith of the Early Fathers” by Jurgens, which is a reprint of dozens of manuscripts from the early church starting ~90AD; if you read Origen (200 AD); if you read Augustine (400 AD) you find that the Christianity of the early church was quite similar to what we have now.
Hi Perry,
Unfortunately Augustine was part of the Constantinian Hybrid which merged church and state. The church that point was in a state of serious decline and Augustine taught things that were blatantly against the faith of the Ante-Nicene Church. Origen was also quite late, and although overall I believe he was quite sound I do believe he was off on some things in regard to the faith once delivered to the saints by the Apostles.
Read Clement of Rome, Irenaeus, Ignatius, Justin Martyr. Don’t read some secondary source on these guys like Jurgens, read the actual books themselves, the primary sources. You will see they actually held quite different beliefs than most modern American Evangelicals. One point would be the doctrine of the Real Presence. Every Early Church Writer without exception believed that Christ’s body and blood was truly present in the bread and wine. There was a group who denied this truth… the Gnostics. I have found many of the things we evangelicals believe today are actually forms of Gnostic heresy.
God bless you bro,
Dave
BTW I love your last message on “7 Things Yo Mama Never Told You About Church History” I expected the same evangelical blinkered response to those issues. I was surprised and excited to hear another evangelical challenging our most cherished but false notions about things. We may not see eye to eye on all things, but I can respect you for your honesty and spiritual integrity.
if you read “Faith of the Early Fathers” by Jurgens, which is a reprint of dozens of manuscripts from the early church starting ~90AD; if you read Origen (200 AD); if you read Augustine (400 AD) you find that the Christianity of the early church was quite similar to what we have now.
Jurgens isn’t a secondary source. It’s a verbatim reprinting of Clement, Irenaeus, Ignatius, Justin Martyr etc, together with scripture references. I certainly respect your views but I personally do not consider the interpretation of communion to be a major theological question. In any case, glad you liked yo’ momma!
“”Weigh me a pound of fire, measure me a bushel of wind, or call back a day that has passed.”
Ezra replied: “No man on earth can answer your question.”"
I can weigh a pound of fire and I can measure a bushel of wind. I can even call back yesterday if you count video cameras. The first two are merely chemistry. Physical chemistry to be exact. Calorimetry will tell you exactly how much a fire weighs. Nitrogen gas makes up 70% of our atmosphere and I had a whole bucket full of liquid nitrogen in my hands just this morning. Will Uriel come down and tell me the secrets now that I can answer his riddles?
A pound of fire, based on E=MC2, would be more energy than an atomic bomb.
He asked for a bushel of wind, not a bushel of air.
And Uriel was asking for time travel, not video.
“A pound of fire, based on E=MC2, would be more energy than an atomic bomb.”
E=mc^2 is used for converting matter into energy, NOT combustion reactions which are the source of fire. A typical combustion reaction would be something like,
C6H12O6 + 6O2 —> 6CO2 + 6H2O + heat
A typical annihilation reaction which would convert matter straight to energy looks just like it sounds.
C6H12O6 —> energy
“And Uriel was asking for time travel, not video.”
Actually he very specifically said “Call back yesterday” not “travel to yesterday.” A video camera is quite capable of calling back the past.
“He asked for a bushel of wind, not a bushel of air.”
Wind IS air Perry. A bushel is a unit of volume not force. The angel clearly asked for him to weigh the air that was blowing. He could not since he was ignorant of science. I can since I am not. Where are my answers?
He didn’t ask him to remember or recall the past, he asked him to bring it back:
KJV And I said, Tell on, my lord. Then said he unto me, Go thy way, weigh me the weight of the fire, or measure me the blast of the wind, or call me again the day that is past.
RSV: And he said to me, “Go, weigh for me the weight of fire, or measure for me a measure of wind, or call back for me the day that is past.”
3rd Millennium Bible: Then said he unto me, “Go thy way, weigh me the weight of the fire, or measure me the blast of the wind, or call me back the day that is past.”
If you can find a single scholarly Bible commentary that says Uriel was simply asking Esras for a bushel of air and Esdras was too stupid to produce it for him, I”ll buy you a pizza with everything on it.
Don’t you just love interpretation?
I would say Jim is close enough and should get his pizza Perry. lol
Let’s just say… Your are the Angel of pizza!
I like pepperoni with mushrooms, green pepper and olives, personally. How about you Jim?
Kal
The angel presents Jim with this question:
“Where did matter come from and what was its source of ignition during what modern day scientist theorize as the beginning of everything, the big bang?”
Jim replied: “No man on earth can answer your question.”
The angel says, “I have only asked you about matter, and energy, things you say you have experience with; and yet you have failed to tell me the answers. Therefore I cannot answer this question for you.”
Point being, regardless the level of knowledge that anyone of us thinks we have, we have–none of us–reached 1% the knowledge and wisdom of an ALL Knowing God. And though it may be a blow to our egos, there are just some things that we are not qualified to question before God.
Can the mail-room clerk run the corporation better than the CEO of Microsoft, for instance. No, though he may think he can. Neither does the CEO of Microsoft owe him any explanation for a decision he makes.
Even if these questions can be answered ( I couldn’t answer them), the point is that Esdras cannot begin to comprehend God’s ways.
If an angel came to answer your question, he would probably ask you different questions.
Read the book of Job. God does the same thing there to Job. The point is to show that we humans are very limited in our understanding, and that sometimes we just need to submit to the will of God.
Resting in Jesus,
Dave Kinsella
Hi bro, may you be blessed in the Lord.
Here’s Ignatius and a few other very early writers who link our salvation with the Eucharist. These quote among many knocked me for six when I first came across them. They shook me badly, as I was told the Communion is merely symbolic and has little to do with my actual Christian walk.
“breaking one and the same bread, which is the medicine of immortality, and the antidote to prevent us from dying, but [which causes] that we should live for ever in Jesus Christ.” Ignatius (c. 105) 1.58
Here’s Justin Martyr
“For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh.1911 For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them,
which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, “This do ye in remembrance of Me,1912 this is My body;” and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, “This is My blood;” and gave it to them alone.”
Here’s a quote from Irenaeus.
“Then, again, how can they (Gnostics) say that the flesh, which is nourished with the body of the Lord
and with His blood, goes to corruption, and does not partake of life? Let them, therefore, either alter their opinion, or cease from offering the things just mentioned.4051 But our opinion is in accordance with the Eucharist, and the Eucharist in turn establishes our opinion. For we offer to Him His own, announcing consistently the fellowship and union of the flesh and Spirit. For as bodies, when they receive the Eucharist, are no longer corruptible, having the hope of the resurrection to eternity. the bread, which is produced from the earth, when it receives the invocation of God, is no longer common bread, but the Eucharist, consisting of two realities, earthly and heavenly;”
Irenaeus (c.180) Against Heresies Book 4 Ch 24
Here’s Clement of Alexandria
To drink the blood of Jesus is to become partaker of the Lord’s immortality…”
(c.195) 2.242
These are all within the first century after the last Apostle died. I cannot deny these clear teachings. I cannot shove them aside and say I’ll stick with these modern day commentators. Who should I listen to as a reliable source of interpretation? John MacArthur? John Calvin? Rick Warren? Or a man who sat at the feet of an Apostle as was handed the church to keep and protect her?
My wife says I come across too harshly when I write. I’m sorry if I do. Please take everything I say in a spirit of gentleness and honesty.
Your Servant,
Dave Kinsella
Hi Perry,
I looked up Jurgen’s book and I realised my friend also has those books. If I remember correctly those books are a set of quotes from the Ante-Nicene Writers(ANW). If I am correct, then I would recommend that you obtain the Ante-Nicene Fathers 10 Volume set and read those quotes in context. Another excellent resource is the ANF set on PDF available fro free from http://www.ccel.org, which is fully searchable. The quote book I use is David Bercot’s “A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs”.
BTW if you are using a books of quotes then it is a secondary source you are using, since the editor has the power to selectively use the comments he prefers while leaving others out. This can be done either intentionally or unintentionally.
Your Bro,
Dave Kinsella
David,
It’s not a book of quotes, it’s complete writing units and letters to churches such as the Didache etc. You can get a full description on Amazon.
What did you think of those other quotes?
Not totally sure what you’re asking for. It’s a thick book with hundreds of pages of great teaching & writing from most of the early church fathers.
In regard to the quotes I asked about. I was asking what did you think of the quotes that I posted? The ones regarding the Eucharist.
Dave
Hi Perry,
I had a look at my friend’s copy of Jurgen’s. It’s not the complete writings of any of the ECW. It appears to be large chunks. Even then reading through it, I’m not sure how how you see that today’s Evangelicalism is anything like 1st, 2nd & 3rd century Christianity.
You can get a hard copy set of the Ante-Nicene Father from http://www.ChristianBook.com for $99. Which is an absolute bargain.
Your Bro,
Dave
I’m not merely talking about evangelicalism, I’m talking about Christianity in the broadest sense ie all branches that accept the Nicene Creed. Whether orthodox, catholic, protestant, evangelical, or charismatic. From a 100,000 foot view Christianity is the same now as it was then. In particular I’m addressing the “DaVinci Code” type people and their accusations that Christianity was invented by Constantine etc.
I’m not in a place to give you an articulate opinion about the Eucharist and the statements you posted. I’ve not made a detailed study of this topic. I will say that one’s understanding of the exact nature of the event is not a hill I’m willing to die on.
Hi Perry,
It would appear (IMHO) that the ANW were willing to die on that hill. Maybe not on the exact nature of the Eucharist. Though Irenaeus claims it consists of both natures. The thing they were defending as one of the absolute central pillars to the Christian faith was the proper administration and reception of the Eucharist.
It just looks to me that my previous views were more in line with Gnosticism; the very thing the ANW were fighting against.
Perhaps an understanding of the exact nature of the event is not needed, but the flippant way (at least as I see it) most evangelicals take it today (if at all) is, in the words of Paul as understood by his disciples, putting their salvation at risk.
At the very least this topic is (IMHO) of far more importance than we have understood it to be.
YBIC,
Dave Kinsella
Hi! Perry,
Thanks for the great post but I´m very confuse this time around and make be you or somebody here can help me out of this.
Why do I have to fight always for things that other people get easy?
I was 3 times in prison for selling drugs(cocain) and
spent total of ten and a half years in the house of darkness before I gave my heart to the Lord in TRUTH 14 years ago and since then the other life is history.I´m very thankful to God for changing my old life for good but why should I to continue to struggle every single day?.Sometimes I get tire and of course confuse – where the promise of a very life?-I haven´t seen it for 14 years-are the promise for some special people and not for the ex-convicted?
I really don´t get it and sometimes it make my heart very very sad to the point that I do cry.
The Lord my God forgive for my confusion!
Orestes,
You ask “Why do I have to fight always for things that other people get easy?”
I cannot possibly do justice to this question in so little space but I would suggest that as the Holy Spirit heals your heart and your mind you will find this to be less and less true. I would like to suggest getting some kind of healing prayer ministry similar to Sozo or Theophostic prayer.
Orestes- I know You addressed Your question to…The Main Man Here…but I have a word (actually–MORE–than “a word”) for You as well…
“Why do I have to fight always for things that other people get easy?”…
This is a variation on The Theme Question of this year’s “reincarnation” of THIS PerryMarshall.com Post… originally titled “Esdras and the Question of Evil” … but when I caught up with this “conversation” begun a year and a half ago … it arrived in My emailbox with the title…
“Why do bad things happen to good people?”
Perry told us of Alex Smiley–a 13 year old friend of His Family who’d just died of Leukemia…
So–if You were Alex–Your question would read…
“Why does my body have to fight for healthy blood cells that other people get easy?”
Life IS A Struggle.
We All Struggle.
IF You Think That…”Others Have IT Easy”…
THEN–That Means–You Do NOT Know Them Well…Enough To Know THEIR Struggles.
FURTHERMORE–It’s Too Easy To Fall Into HABITUALLY Short-Circuited Thinking…
Such As Asking “WHY Must I Have To Struggle EVERY DAY”…believing that others do NOT ALSO Have Their Daily Struggles…
IF–Much of What You Know of “Others” Is Coming To You From Any/Many of The MULTIPLE FORMS of Broadcast Media…
THEN–You Need To Start Spending LESS of Your Time PLUGGED Into These (what follows is an Old Tag that is MORE apropos than EVER) BOOB TUBES…
AND MORE of Your Time Making REAL Connections With REAL People Who REALLY NEED Helping Hands & Eyes & Ears & The Mind…And The Entire PACKAGE…Such As YOU Have To Offer…
HOWEVER–Since You’re NOT “Superman”…
AND–You’re NO Longer being deluded by That Great Liar–Cocaine–Into Operating Under Those “Superman” Sensations…
What You FIRST Need To Find Is A Group of Good People ALREADY DOING The Kinds of Ministry Work That You Are Best Suited To Help With–Too.
We’re All Different & We’re All Here…
What You’re Best Capable of IS NOT What I’m Best Capable of…Yet BOTH of Our “Skill Sets” Are Needed–Somewhere–In This World of Ours…
And NOW–Thanks To The Internet–Finding What We Need & Who We Need & Who Needs US…Can Happen More Efficiently Than EVER…
EXCEPT THAT WE MUST ALL TAKE PRECAUTIONS–Because as a 3-Timer Yourself…You KNOW How Many “Dudes” There Are Who Sign On To “Serve” With Ministries…when all along their real plan is to play these patsies just long enough to gain that degree of trust that allows ez’er access to a clutch of dumb lil’ bunnies…over in the youth programs (Where The “Growth Markets” Are Located)…
AND–After All–What “Christian Community” Can Resist Opportunities To “Boast” of It’s Power To Redeem Sinners…Thru Such Clear Demonstrations of The Healing Strength of The Lord–Jesus–Acting Through THIS CHURCH & PASTOR ?!?
At This “Stage of Your Game”…There Are PLENTY of Other Adult-Aged Guyz Out There–Who Are Barely Operating On A Level of 13-Year Old Maturity–
Who Need Someone Who KNOWS THEM…
Who Knows All Their Lies…
Who Knows When These Lies Were Told &
How These Lies Were Sold…
And Having Found A Way OUT of “The Woods” Themselves…
Can Serve As A Guide To One of The Remaining…
Lost BOYZ.
Don’t Try To “Save The World”…
Just Find The Guy–In Whose Life–YOU Think You Can Make A Difference–For The Better…
Knowing That–IF They Fall Back Again…The Greater Body of Christ Is Always THERE To Try The NEXT Attempt At A “Save”…In THIS World.
NO MATTER WHAT–Doing THIS Will Help YOU To Know Yourself–Through Helping Others–By Shedding Light Into Some of Your Remaining “Dark Corners”…
Just As I Found That–Raising My Girls Thru Their Teenaged Years Served To Help Me Resolve Those…ahem…Sticking Points–Left Over From My “Gurl Gone Wild” Daze.
Perry,
Your posting arrived in my inbox with the usual assortment of postings from the hospital patient advocate comunity, with which I am active. The question you ask – “Why do bad things happen to good people?” is one that resonates with and tortures these good people, struggling to understand how a child could bleed to death from a tonsillectomy, or indeed, how leukemia could claim the life of an innocent child.
I am ill-equipped to offer anything to this dialogue relative to Christian theory or physics. However I found your post thoughtful and helpful. I lapsed as a Catholic because I found so much of the dogma irrelevant; at this point in my life it is good to ponder the questions you explore. In fact they offer great comfort and insight. Thank you.
Finally, I would share a stellar example of how we cannot know the greater plan. Molly Smith, daughter of my best friend, has cerebral palsy and will never walk. She is challenged in her speech, vision and motor skills. Though some may never see beyond this, Molly is a teacher of all that is important. She is a triumph of spirit, bursting with life, vitality, humor and kindness, and has a wisdom and compassion about her that is as humbling as it is boundless. Was it a bad thing that Molly was injured at birth? Or is she a gift like no other? What being around Molly shows us is that there can be gifts in even the greatest adversity…gifts we may not understand in the moment, but must await with patience to unfold.
I can’t count how many people who are parents of disabled kids say things like this. Ari Galper has made his son with Downs syndrome, Toby, a mascot and universal life lesson teacher.
I once read a GREAT book about the rise and fall of the Eugenics movement (ie “eliminate the misfits from the gene pool” fad of the early 20th century) by Daniel Kevles. At the end he said, “Hey, it’s not the disbled kids who make life miserable for us all. Isn’t it the super geniuses that build nuclear weapons and screw up the planet more than anybody else?”
Perry, this nettles me because the promises (safety, food, provision, etc.) as found in the Psalms and Deut 28 are ostensibly null and void then, right? Why do those promises seem to intermittently kick into gear while other times they do not as in the story you pointed out?
Mike,
I don’t have an exact answer for you, but a few things to consider.
God’s covenant with Israel said – if you do what is right your land will be peaceful and prosperous. And God said that if you don’t, marauders will come in and kill you and take the survivors captive. The Mosaic Law is very clear about that.
David writes his Psalms in a land where most people are obeying God. Esdras writes his lament in a land where most people aren’t – where the righteous are few and far between.
So I don’t think there’s a contradiction there.
Interesting, politically incorrect question I like to ask:
“Name 5 protestant Christian countries that have rampant poverty, illiteracy and human rights abuses.”
And:
“Name 5 Buddhist countries… or 5 Hindu countries… or 5 Muslim countries… or 5 Atheist countries… that do NOT have rampant poverty, illiteracy and human rights abuses.”
I think that feeds into the same question.
Perry,
I can answer that question.
5 prosperous and safe countries that lean towards atheism or agnosticism. Germany. Czech. Finland. Austria. Actually most of Europe. (Aside from the “immigrant” areas, Europe is quite safe, especially compared to the US. This is something that’s puzzled me for quite some time. Germany is extremely prosperous, technologically advanced, clean and safe, yet it’s certainly not a “Christian Country”. I find it interesting that missions never seems to include Europe even though Europe is in deserpate need of Christ.
I still point out that Christianity is a *major* influence in all the countries you named, and throughout western Europe. Some form of Christianity still tops the list for all those countries, and outranks atheism and agnosticism.
Perry,
I don’t want to appear contentious, however, nations like Japan, Singapore and Taiwan are prosperous.
Oh yes I totally agree. There’s just not very many of them.
I agree with the gentleperson that can measure and weigh the wind fire and yesterday. I believe in God. However, I do not understand how totally intelligent folk can beleive the Bible is more than a fabulous book, re-written and re-written over time to suit the modern day. The Bible and Jesus along with some other Religious books from other faiths are simply the best marketing strategies in the history of mankind. The beauty of saying the earth is flat, “Because the Church says it is so,” proof is a lie, answers all.
Rick,
There’s way too much depth to your questions to respond to in one blog comment but my site http://www.coffeehousetheology.com addresses many of the questions you raise.
Perry
So does being prosperous mean a country is right with God? Do the promises made specifically to Israel pertain to Gentile nations too. What does the fact that America is rife with porn, murder, homosexuality, drugs, atheism, divorce, abortion and a host of other things mean? All these European countries are similar.
I am Irish. As a RC country we were poor for centuries, while the Protestant British used us like slaves and turned its back almost completely during the Great Famine, putting it down to God’s wrath. It wasn’t until we joined the EU that we became prosperous. One of the top most prosperous countries in the world a few years ago before the recession hit us.
America is not walking with God, has not for a long time. Did Jesus say riches would await those who serve Him faithfully? That peace and prosperity would be with those who obey His commands? Or did He say something else?
Complex questions. Didn’t God tell Abraham He would spare Sodom and Gomorrah if even 10 good men could be found?
Funny, I had thought you might pull that one out in response. But your argument is that Protestant nations are among the richest, and this I assume you put down either to God’s hand of blessing or down to simply putting the commands of the Bible into practice to some degree. I could agree with the 2nd one perhaps. I know in my own life this is the case. I even know the J.W.’s claim the same thing: that life is blessed when we put the commands of God into practice in everyday life.
Dave,
We probably more or less agree. You noticed that I said “Protestant” and not “Catholic.” Why is that? Catholic countries are certainly above average in the world but generally have not fared as well. Why? Simply put I believe it’s because there’s less competition and less inclination to be progressive and to THINK. Within Christianity the Orthodox countries have done even more poorly, Russia succumbing to communism and atheism.
I have nothing against Catholics and have great respect for the Catholic church and history in general. I think the Catholic church has more than anything a quality control problem. Very inconsistent from parish to parish. The average Catholic completely misses out on the treasures of the great theologians and church fathers and gets a watered down ritualistic mass and doesn’t understand the scriptures, the thinking and the conversations behind it. Of course the average Protestant gets maybe something only somewhat better.
Good point. You are going to get me started on how women should be in charge – they would find solutions before sending their kids off to war or screwing up their kids’ planet
But beyond that, there is great peace in the eastern belief that “everything is as it should be.” If we pause in real time to ponder and believe that, we have an opportunity to see what the universe wants us to learn.
Do you/have you explored other religions and philosophies? I can’t believe a person of your depth does not. How do you find and distill your wisdom and evolve your own universal truths? Or is a PK forever attracted to the same “true north”?
I could have gone all kinds of different directions and yes I have explored other religions extensively.
Let’s take the “everything is as it should be” idea. Yes, Eastern religions teach that. Western religions most emphatically teach the exact opposite.
I think the western religions are right on that one and the eastern ones are wrong. In Asia this breeds a fatalism that Westerners would never tolerate. The Indian caste system is a good example. Nobody is their brothers’ keeper because, after all, the person did something in a past life to deserve their bad fate.
I think the most attractive option for a typical PK is actually some sort of agnosticism or even atheism. I was very much tempted by those views. My site http://www.cosmicfingerprints.com details my scientific journey into that set of questions.
Perry, are you forgetting that Christianity is also an Eastern religion? It is not a Western one.
I’m speaking in conventional terms.
Perry,
Who is the “they” in the angel’s response: “…so they are impatient to give back all the souls committed to them since time began.” ?
your email lifted me up this am and was along with another message I felt timed from God this am.
thanks!
If you read the sentence very carefully it is very clear from the context.
Tha’s a fact jack! Knowing God has a plan brings me great comfort…knowing Jesus paid for my sins, brings me GREATER comfort! I’m actually glad life isn’t fair, if it were, I’d be going to hell for sure.
My little brother died when he was 14… I KNOW I will see him again, because I know he loved Jesus. And even if he didn’t I do not believe he was at the age of accountablity..or at an age where he would understand fully the implications of his eternal decisions. I don’t know at what age that happens, but I do know that God loves to be merciful and as Jesus said, If you even have faith as big as a grain of mustard seed (very very small seed)that is enough.
God is so loving and so tender and so kind, I fully trust that His judgements and His mercy are PERFECT.
Kevin- You have just touched the exact pulse point of THE PROBLEM that so many “Cradle Christians” have with Christianity once they’ve started to grow into their Adult Mind… Namely–How Could A Loving GOD Condemn People To Eternal Damnation… Except For Those Who’ve Played The “Get Out of Jail FREE” Card By Expressing Their Belief In Jesus Christ During Their Lifetime On Earth?
YES–You Will See Your Brother Again … YES–I’m Sure You Already See Him… In Your Mind’s Eye … YES–The “Circle” WAS-IS-AND WILL FOREVER BE UNBROKEN … AllLife-Christ-TheUniverse–IT’S ALL A SEAMLESS GARMENT … All of Our Faults & Failings Will Be Forgiven–IF NOT By Our “Brothers” & “Sisters” In This World … THEN By Christ–In The NEXT.
HELL IS REAL… But HELL is experienced HERE–In THIS World… Especially As We Members of The Family of ManKind Are UNKind… And Continue To Do Unto OTHERS Terrible Things–That Were Done Unto US…
Which Isn’t To Say That We Cannot Defend Ourselves When Attacked… After all–Even The Body of Jesus Had Fairly Thick Skin & A Functioning Immune System… But We Must Defend & Correct The Sources of The REAL Problems… Which Is A Very Different M.O. Than Taking Revenge.
Figuring Out Why We Are Suffering… What Went Wrong & Why It Went Wrong & Making Corrections For Going Forward… THIS Is What Distinguishes Western Philosophy From That of The East.
Great stuff Perry!!, keep it up man, hope to be able to meet you one day..
The key with all suffering is to maintain an eternal perspective. When it involves personal or family suffering this is almost impossible–but necessary.In our most hopeless moments Christians are drawn to Him, and away from worldly dreams.Eternally, being dependent,and clinging to Father for help–is a safe place to be–though uncomfortable.Character that is useful to God is molded during these times of pain–though they last far longer than we see any need.And finally we make huge and often unknown impacts on others who observe the faith, dignity, and selflessness during our suffering–this effects others here and eternally–and lightens their load here.
Perry- Just between Me & Thee… RE: Your April 10, 2010 comments posted to Dave at 9:34 pm… “…I personally do not consider the interpretation of communion to be a major theological question.”
SERIOUSLY ??
Please tell Me that THIS is NOT Your Final Word on This Subject.
-Mary
P.S.
Apologies if this is a “Repeat Post” … I THOUGHT I’d already sent this off… but now that I’m paging back and see it here… weeeeell… I’m not so sure. What I am sure of is that it’s getting late and my brain is getting… dim.
It is for some people. It’s not on my top 10 list. Not saying it’s not important, but it’s not central.
Spoken like a True Protestant.
The thief on the cross was saved by grace, through the faith he had in Jesus as being the Son of God who was about to enter into His kingdom.
He received the Body of Christ and the cleansing Blood of Christ without ever taking the physical elements of the Eucharist, or being Baptized.
I don’t remember reading anywhere in scripture where we are told that the prescription for salvation DEPENDS on our theological disposition concerning how we view the elements of the Eucharist.
I always thought it was faith in Christ and His sacrifice that mattered supremely, not faith in the rites that are representative of His sacrifice.
Explain to a 3yr old why you have to go off to work today–because you have to earn in order to pay bills–and why you can’t just stay home and play with them instead. They still don’t get it, so you smile, pat them on the head and go off to work.
I think the issue with suffering and all the other unanswered questions is much like with God. The same is probably so with the things we think are so important that we dispute over them amongst ourselves. God looks down at His ignorant little children, smiles, pats us on the head and says…”One day it will all make sense to you. I’ll be gone for a little while, but watch for my return and know that we’ll have a grand time together then.”
Douglas- We Will ALL BE “SAVED” After THIS Earthly Existence… It’s just that Not Everyone is “Saved” from The FEAR of Death–Suffered During Earthly Life… As Are Those Whose Complete Faith&Trust IN Jesus Christ Graces Them With Such Freeing Confidence In The Face of The Loss of Life… or–Worse–Livelihood.
Which is ALSO why so many more “Worldly Minded” people look at the True Christian&Christ-like Believers as sufferers of a mental derangement…
AND–This INCLUDES Some of the fellow “christians” in the pews whose “faith” rests upon the reassurances that they can see of its “apparent success” as measured in Dollars & Sense. If a church looks to be populated by too many… Losers… they’ll “shop” for another.
GOD’s Relation To Us IS MUCH as a Father’s is to his 3-year-old… Which is WHY… At The Last Supper–Christ Gave The Holy Orders To… “Take this and share it among yourselves;… This is my body, which will be given for you; do this in memory of me.”
What He Did NOT Say was–understand everything FIRST and once you’ve learned everything that you think you need to know THEN… Take this and Do this in memory of me.
If We Demanded To Know EVERYTHING About Our Future Spouse FIRST–before we would enter into a marriage with them–We Would NEVER Marry… After all… How can we expect to even understand ALL THAT THERE IS TO KNOW About Another… when we understand so very little about our own selves ??
There is an old saying that I heard first among my husband’s German-American Farming Family who reside in & around Belleville, Illinois…
“Too Soon Old–Too Late Smart”…
Christ Knew THIS About US & He Not Only Understands & Forgives This… shortcoming… But He Left Us Keys To Accelerate Our Learning Curves…
AND HE ALSO LEFT US Free… To Decide To Pick UP Those Keys… or find any of a LARGE NUMBER of other ways to get to where we are all going…
Whether we Want IT or NOT
Whether we Know IT of NOT
Whether we Believe IT or NOT
Whether we Asked For IT or NOT.
Happy&Holy Days 2U’all !!
If you make reference to the death of the body as signifying that we are all saved from this earthly existence, then I suppose I can agree with you on that point; everyone dies. I guess I just never considered this earthly existence something anyone needed to be saved from.
Rather, I consider the term “saved” to mean a person God has chosen through grace to spend eternity with Him…and no, I do not believe we will all be saved to that eternal fate; nor do I believe it takes the Eucharist to save a person to that eternal fate.
A true Christ follower observes the Eucharist out of faithfulness and observance to what he has already received, not in order to receive what he hasn’t yet. The Eucharist is a precious, intimate observance to a Christian, but it is not what makes them a Christian.
It is 4:25am, Good Friday morning. At about 6am, approximately 1980-1985 years ago, Jesus was arrested. I do not accept that He has provided ANY OTHER way whereby men can be saved to eternal life with God, nor do I accept that ALL will meet with that wonderful fate.
If you have faith in the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ you truly have a cause to celebrate the gift He has given you. Not everyone has been blessed with such unmerited favor.
I guess the question that comes to mind for me is that if there is such “a LARGE NUMBER of other ways to get to where we are all going,” why is the Eucharist so important to you?
Have a great weekend & a blessed Resurrection Sunday!
“Why is the Eucharist so important to you?”
Why is “Mother’s Milk” important in a day & age & place where Baby Formula is available?… Is an analogous question.
I grew up in a family of 7 kids… The oldest (that would be Me) born in 1952 and the youngest (a brother) born in 1962. Yes–We were a DENSE PACK… but really… just an average sized family on our block… NOT too far from “Planet Perry” offices. Yes–We’re Irish-Catholics… Why do You ask?
Many of My (Protestant)Peers in School–and Their Families–were amused/appalled at the thought of having just so Too Many Kids All Jammed Together & Living Under One Roof… Good Gracious–What IS The World Coming To ?!?
How does one convince an “outsider” whose measures of “wealth” places considerable value on such things as “Higher Standards of Living” (as defined by glossy magazines) and “Privacy”… how eminently MORE enriching it is to spend one’s formative & adult years interacting on a close & continual basis with so many siblings?
Why argue? At the “End of The Day” we probably STILL would NOT want to… CHANGE! places… as we each found a full measure of God’s Goodness on the paths that we were–initially–placed on and later… chose for ourselves.
For a long time I pondered Christ’s words to Thomas recorded in John’s Gospel… “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me” … and thought–as probably You do too–that this meant that ONLY BELIEVERS IN Jesus As “Savior of The World” Would Get Into Heaven…
But then–years later–when my own Kiddos were in Jr & Sr High School and I taught 7th grade CCD… I Read REALLY CLOSELY For The First Time–The OPENING LINES of JOHN’S GOSPEL… Lines That Echo The Opening Lines of The First Chapter of The First Book of GENESIS…
John Chapter 1:
1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2
He was in the beginning with God.
3
All things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be. What came to be
4
through him was life, and this life was the light of the human race;
5
the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
“The Word” IS Jesus Christ
Jesus Was/Is/WillAlwaysBe With God
Jesus Was/Is/WillAlwaysBe God
All Things Came To Be Through Jesus…
In other words…
BIG BANG = JESUS CHRIST
ALL LIFE = JESUS CHRIST
There is NO THING nor ANY LIVING CREATURE That IS NOT A PART of THE BODY of JESUS CHRIST…
Jesus Christ IS ALL THERE IS…
Jesus Christ IS The Way & The Truth & The Life FOR EVERYBODY-EVERYBODY At All Times & In All Places…
So It’s NO WONDER That We Can & Will Each “Find Our Way” To Christ…And even if we do not ever put The Correct Name Tag To “IT” during our Earthbound years…We Will Finally Say …Oh My God… In Our Eternal Days
Approximately 2000+ Years Ago–THE SOURCE of LIFE-THE UNIVERSE–AND EVERYTHING–Was Born of Mary Into This World To Demonstrate Just How One Leads A TRULY HUMAN Life…
Because We Do Share So Much With Animal Nature & We Learn So Much From Animal Nature That IT CAN BE VERY CONFUSING As To Where To… “Draw The Line” In Our Actions & Interactions…
AND–Because So Much of Human Governance Gets Structured To Create… as near as possible… heaven on earth for SOME PREFERRED GROUP of INSIDERS… while enslaving “outsiders” into various degrees & circles of Living HELL… Christ Gave US All Key Instructions For How To Establish Order On Earth Modeled On THE MIND of GOD FOR US…
And–in the meantime–Christ Gave HIS Consolation To Those Whose Lives Are Plagued By Marginalization–Suffering Quick Condemnation & Severe Punishments To…
FEAR NOT
The Lord–Your God–Was Made To Suffer & Endure The Same. He Sees Your Plight & Will Welcome You Into HIS Kingdom…
And the good news for Those of US Who’ve Already Got IT… Rather Good…IS That…
We…Relative Fat Cats*…Will Get IN–As Well.
*
“I just never considered this earthly existence something anyone needed to be saved from.”
Congratulations–If THIS Is True…Then You’re A “Relative Fat Cat”–Too–As is…No Doubt…Anyone with the time & means to discuss Deep Thoughts Here on “Planet” PerryMarshall.com
Very interesting perspective.
Well–That’s mighty …neutral… of you to say.
Not neutral in any respect. You and I, it seems, are quite polar opposites in our views of theology. Nonetheless, I find your perspective interesting.
For instance, your extrapolation that because everything was created by Him and for Him, somehow this means the universe and everything in it IS Him…that is interesting to me. Sounds to me like a view stemming more from the origins of esoteric philosophy rather than Christianity though.
“There is NO THING nor ANY LIVING CREATURE That IS NOT A PART of THE BODY of JESUS CHRIST…
Jesus Christ IS ALL THERE IS…”
If this is so, Christ must have been punishing Himself on the cross for His own corruption, taking His own medicine so to speak, in order to cure the cancer growing within Himself. A corrupted Christ is then purifying Himself in order to become acceptable to Himself again…interesting, just not supportable.
Thank You–Douglas–This is More LIKE IT…a REAL Response…I mean.
RE: “You and I, it seems, are quite polar opposites…”
“Polar Opposites”…How would we even HAVE This–Turn of Phrase…so to speak–IF Our World Did NOT Have Opposite Poles & Polarities For US To Experience & From Which To Learn & Apply To…Analogous Situations?
Furthermore–Are You thinking “Polar Opposites” in the sense of the Geographic North & South Poles of Our Planet…located at opposite points but BOTH Cold Places?…
OR–Are You thinking of the Earth’s Magnetic North & South Poles–NOT To Be Confused With The Geographic North & South Poles–
AND–Making Matters WORSE…Earth’s Magnetic North Pole is a magnetic field south pole–And Vice Versa–BUT Before Too Much Geologically Longer…The Earth’s North & South Magnetic Poles will pull a “BIG Switcheroo”–As They’ve Done SO MANY TIMES BEFORE–And Earth’s Magnetic North Will Be a magnetic field north pole…Which Will Either Obsolete Our Compasses–OR We’ll Have To Get Used To Remembering That They NOW Point “South”–NOT “North” Anymore.
Life-Christ-TheUniverse…
IS ALL A DEEP EXPERIENCE & COMPLEX STORY FILLED WITH MANY COUNTER-INTUITIVE TWISTS & TURNS…
That Must Be Taught To Each New Child Born…
Over&Over&OverAgain…
AND NOT ONLY–To Each Newly “Hatched” Child…
BUT To Each of US–As We “Hatch” Into The NEXT Ages & Stages of Our Lives…
Because–So Much of “What Happens” When An Adolescent “Loses Their Faith”…IS That–As They Grow Into A More Adult-like Mind…They Reject The Child-like Rosy Pictures of GOD That They Were Taught In The Early Grades…
And–During This Process of Rejecting These “Simple-Sounding” Explanations of “God & Life & Christ & Everything”…They Just Chuck All Faith In God & Jesus “Out The proverbial Window”…
But If They Keep Wrestling With THE BIG QUESTIONS…
And Doing GOOD WORK…
They…eventually…Find A WAY TO “GET”–
THE MESSAGE…
Which sometimes leads them BACK into Traditional Houses of Worship…
And sometimes leads them INTO Non-Traditional Circles of Worship…
And If Their Work IS All Good–THEN IT IS of GOD.
Anywho–IF You Do NOT Agree With My Paraphrase…
“There is NO THING nor ANY LIVING CREATURE That IS NOT A PART of THE BODY of JESUS CHRIST…
Jesus Christ IS ALL THERE IS…”
THEN–How Would YOU State The Meaning of…
John Chapter 1:1-5
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. HE WAS IN THE BEGINNING WITH GOD. [NOTE: Refer back to Genesis Chapter 1 if You need a quick review of What Happened "In the beginning with God"] ALL THINGS came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be. WHAT CAME to be through him WAS LIFE, and this life was the light of the human race; the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.”
?? … [My insertion of ALL CAPS here & there for emphasis & clarification.]
You stated that My views Sound To You like…”a view stemming more from the origins of esoteric philosophy rather than Christianity…”
I Beg To Differ…As My Views “Stem” From A Plain Reading of The Plain Statements Found At The Beginning of The Gospel of John…and followed up by All The Rest of The NEW Testament–ESPECIALLY.
And–IF THESE ARE NOT “Christian Thoughts”–
THEN WHAT ELSE CAN THEY POSSIBLY BE ??
FURTHERMORE–My Views Are NOT Original To Me…As They Are ALSO Modeled & Reflected In The Teaching & Practices of One of The Greatest of Christian Leaders–Who Has Been Embraced & Emulated By Untold Millions Unto Billions of People For Over 800 Years–St Francis of Assisi.
It’s interesting to ALSO NOTE that Your Characterization of My views as being…”esoteric”…
which means essentially…
“restricted to a small circle”
IS THE POLAR OPPOSITE of:
My Statements v. Your Statements
My Statements: “We Will ALL BE “SAVED” After THIS Earthly Existence… It’s just that Not Everyone is “Saved” from The FEAR of Death–Suffered During Earthly Life… As Are Those Whose Complete Faith&Trust IN Jesus Christ Graces Them With Such Freeing Confidence In The Face of The Loss of Life… or–Worse–Livelihood…”
v.
Your Statements: “I consider the term “saved” to mean a person God has chosen through grace to spend eternity with Him…and no, I do not believe we will all be saved to that eternal fate…”
It Is You Who State That–
Eternal Salvation By Jesus Christ IS RESTRICTED–
NOT Me…
Your statements are the …esoteric… ones.
AND–Regarding You Last Paragraph: “If this is so, Christ must have been punishing Himself on the cross for His own corruption, taking His own medicine so to speak, in order to cure the cancer growing within Himself. A corrupted Christ is then purifying Himself in order to become acceptable to Himself again…interesting, just not supportable.”
Are You Being Deliberately OBTUSE…
Or Do You REALLY–NOT–”Get” IT ??
Last weekend in Rev. Billy Graham’s “My Answer” column…He gave one of THE MOST Oft’ Repeated Summary Statements of WHAT THE MEANING of CHRIST’S SUFFERING & DEATH ON THE CROSS IS:
“… Why did Jesus refuse to become a king? The reason is because he came into the world for an entirely different reason: to become the complete and final sacrifice for our sins…”
There ARE Many More Levels & Dimensions of Meaning To Christ’s Suffering & Death–In Addition To THIS ONE…Just as there ARE many more levels & dimensions to the “meaning” of “polar opposites”…as we examined–briefly–earlier.
You played some–Fairly Glib–games with Your “Christ must have been punishing Himself on the cross for His own corruption” statements…Your words make Me “see” John Cleese smacking his own back side while shouting “I’m a naughty boy!”
IF NOTHING ELSE–
Jesus Demo’ed For US How–
The Human Systems of Government In Place At–
HIS TIME IN THE WORLD AS THE “SonofMary&SonofGOD” HANDLED “The Case” of…
ONLY COMPLETELY INNOCENT MAN–EVER…
Yes–Jewish Minds Had Been Prepared For Well Over 1000 Years To Understand The Death of Jesus As Being Analogous To That of A Sacrificial Lamb…NOW–THE Atonement For Our Sins…
BUT–IF This MOCKERY of JUSTICE…
This Trumped UP Condemnation
& Brutal Beating
& Humiliation
& Merciless Crucifixion
IF This Story Didn’t ALSO Tell You Just HOW MUCH WE ALL NEED TO CHANGE! OUR WAYS…
THEN–You’re Probably MORE In League With…
The Problems of The World THAN The Solutions.
The thing is…2000 years HAVE elapsed since The Days of Our Lord–IN HIS FLESH–And WE HAVE CHANGED! A LOT of OUR…Wrongful…Ways&Means…
But They Keep…Bubbling UP Again…As New Laws & Technologies & Economies & Travel & Communication Allow People Operating In “Business Empires” Based–Fundamentally–On Various Degrees & Polish of Lies & Liars…To MoveOn Into Fresh-New Markets…Too Innocent or Inexperienced To See Thru The Veils…Yet…
Suckers–There’s one born every minute–AND Two–To Take ‘Em…IF WE DON’T CONTINUOUSLY WORK TO Raise Up The Happiest & Healthiest & Most Productive/Non-Neurotic GenNEXT…AND…WORK To Establish &/or Maintain Fair & Respect-filled Systems of Government & Business & Education…
And What of The Flunkies & Failures At The “Bottom” of Our Systems?…Jesus Told US That We Condemn Ourselves When We Are Socially Oblivious To Others–Allowing Them To Lead Lives of “Invisibility & Untouchability”–As Mother Teresa Worked Tirelessly To Redress.
I heard a story of Her that once…on Her way to an audience with Pope John Paul II she saw a man on the streets of Rome and stopped Her Driver to go tend to His needs. When Her Driver protested that this would make Them Late for their appointment–She said–Call and tell the Pope that I am with Jesus.
ANYWAY–Look At The Universe–
Worlds Collide
Great Forces Build Pressure & Ultimately Erupt
New Stars Are Born
Old Stars Balloon Into Great “Gas Bags”…
and slowly grow cold
Objects Hum Along “Minding Their Own Business” And Then–Without Their Seeing IT COMING–They Become Sucked Into A Black Hole From Which There Appears To Be NO RETURN…
And somewhere at work in the CERN Laboratories over on the Franco-Swiss border Physicists think that they’re about to corner Higgs boson…a.k.a., the God particle…
WILL WONDERS NEVER CEASE ??
I Don’t Know About “Your Corner of The World”…
But From What little I know of The Universe–
IT ALL Sounds Pretty–True To Life–To Me.
In the section that reads in part:
Which sometimes leads them BACK into Traditional Houses of Worship…
And sometimes leads them INTO Non-Traditional [Circles] Networks of Worship…
And If Their Work IS All Good–THEN IT IS of GOD.
I REALLY wish I’d thought to write “Networks” instead of “Circles” in that second to the last line… 8 /
Oh…And in case I haven’t said it to Y’all before…
God Bless Your Good Work…
I Hope You Know That You Are A Blessing To Me…
And Many-Many Others…
-Mary [Marshall] Blanc
When I make mention of esoteric philosophy, I refer to hybrids of Greek philosophy heavily influenced by Pantheism (God is everything and everything is God). Greek philosophies with Pantheistic influence also had impact on the early church, especially in re the Gnostic teachings. Remnants of these still exist, although largely unnoticed. No, you are not the first to think as you do on this subject.
I am not being deliberately obtuse, nor do I not understand the issue. I draw the logical conclusion that IF “there is no thing…that is not part of the body of Jesus Christ,” if “Jesus Christ is all there is,” then there is a cancer called evil dwelling within Jesus Christ. Since that statement is blatantly false, so is the statement that “Jesus Christ is all there is.” That all things were created by Him, for Him and through Him, is not to translate that all things ARE Him.
When it comes to God, “we all see as through a glass darkly,” meaning, no one has clear insight into His exact essence. Our view of Him is fuzzy at best. I am content for you to believe as you do even though we disagree. I hope you feel the same.
As the topic of this thread is in reference to why God allows His people to suffer, I do not intend to comment further regarding the direction of our conversation, Mary. I feel we have gone off on too many tangents as it is.
Have a blessed day!
Douglas- Speak for Yourself when saying that remnants of Greek philosophy & Pantheism & Gnosticism remain…largely unnoticed…When Anyone who’s paid the least little amount of attention to the goings on…Especially On College Campuses From North To South AND From Sea To Shining Sea…Will See ALL THIS AND MORE–ALIVE & WELL & “Reincarnated” with each new class of …ahem… Rising Sophomores.
You liken “Evil” again to “Cancer” … well–look at it from the Cancer’s perspective. A Cancer starts to grow…and Grow…and GROW…and from all that IT can tell–Life IS Good–until the day that it kills its host and that’s the end of it’s “Gravy Train”…but up until That Point–IT “thought” that it was doing “Good Work” producing More Living Cells. The thing is…if it didn’t die of this Cancer…the host’s body will still die…just of some other cause at some other time…It’s How God Created Life of The Earthly Body To Be–Our Bodies Got Their START In Life–And They Will Get To Their END…And even if we die a terrible death suffered at the hands of people working under Butal & Harsh Systems of Governance…God–IN HIS MERCY–Will Call Us To Himself. HOWEVER…Because SOME PEOPLE STILL THINK That God Does NOT Call Each & Every Life To Himself–Thinking Instead That God Condemns Some Lives To Eternal Damnation…Well…People Who Think THAT WAY Have Also Concocted Ways&Means By Which They Agree Among Themselves Juse WHO CLEARLY HAS God’s Favor Upon Them & Who Does NOT…And So–Therefore Make LOGICAL EXTENTIONS To Exclude The “Unwashed & Unfavored” From THE INNER CIRCLES…except as dishwashers and other forms of underclass (if not PERMANENT–then with CHANGE! occurring Slower Than Molasses In January) servitude…Which You Do NOT Appear To Have A…Problem With…WHILE I DO HAVE A SERIOUS PROBLEM WITH SUCH A TERRIBLE DISTORTION of CHRIST’S MESSAGE TO US.
Douglas–If All Christ’s Life & Death Meant Was–
Some Will Get To Heaven & Others Will NOT…
This Would NOT BE “Good News”…
This Would Just Be MORE of “Same Ol’-Same Ol’”…
And 2000 Years Later–We Would NOT STILL BE…
Talkin’ About HIM !!
Think About “IT”*–Buddy–The Time Has Come For ALL of US To Be Called AND Received To Blessed Days.
-Mary
*
I use “IT” as an acronym for Al Gore’s GREAT Turn of Phrase that He’s employed to Good Use…
“Inconvenient Truth”
Thanks dude. Great posting. I’d appreciate it, if you can also make postings on celibacy/brahmacharya.
Hi Perry, In my humble opinion, this is very good discussion. Thank you for publishing it.
Where I’m left, though, is wondering what relevance God has for us. Suffering exists, we can’t understand why, so what role is there for God in our lives?
There’s a popular idea that in a world where suffering exists, God cannot make sense.
Jesus doesn’t explain why we have suffering, but Jesus – God coming in the flesh – means that God is an active participant in the woes of man, not merely a detached observer.
Say what you want about a cruel God who allows evil and suffering, he joins us in our experience of it.
The world is full of stories of man trying to become God – it’s a dreary parade of people like Kim Jung Il and Stalin and emperors and tyrants.
Nothing has made the world a more humane and peaceful place than God becoming man – everywhere that people embrace the grace and forgiveness of Jesus, there is compassion and healing.
The conclusion I come to about this, per the article above, is that an intellectual pursuit will not give you a satisfying answer. Not in this world anyway. However the answer you seek is in the cross.
My email series at http://www.coffeehousetheology.com explores this more deeply.
Great question, Jim.
Perry
“There’s a popular idea that in a world where suffering exists, God cannot make sense.”
Not at all. The popular idea is that a god who is omniscient would be able to think up a world where free will can exist WITHOUT evil or suffering. You are the one claiming that your god is omniscient and omnipotent but then you just make excuses for his shoddy work on the universe. Furthermore even if the myth of Adam eating the fruit was true then your god still made the decision as to what a fallen world would be like and thus chose suffering for us all. He had an infinity of other ways a fallen world could be like and he chose this one. “I want a better way to fall.”
Infinity is the key to the subject here. An omnipotent being could have made the universe any way he wanted, so to include things like flesh eating bacteria and child cancer he would just have to be a bastard.
No one is saying a god couldn’t exist. They are just saying he couldn’t possibly be omnibenevolent after seeing the existence he had created. If he isn’t omnibenevolent then you are just worshiping him because he is powerful, and that is a shallow love.
James,
Do you actually want this? Do you actually believe this? Which of your rights to choose would you voluntarily give up?
Would you give up the right to insult someone?
Would you give up the right to have an abortion?
Would you give up the right to not believe in God?
Would you give up your right to free speech?
Would you give up your right to harm people with merely your thoughts?
Would you give up your right to shoot laser beams out of your eyes?
Obviously there are already limits set on us by what you think of as god. If he made the universe then he designed those limits. Therefore your rebuttal is flawed.
By the way I would give up a lot of things if it meant no woman was ever raped again.
You didn’t answer my question.
Your question is flawed. You imply that we must give up something in order to stop rape. You just placed a limit on god’s omnipotence and omniscience.
You don’t think god could come up with a way for us to have both?!?! God isn’t powerful enough to make a universe where free will exists but evil cannot?!?
Since your god is supposedly powerful enough and smart enough to do so, then his lack of action is very telling about his character.
Of course we must give up something in order to stop rape.
You still didn’t answer my question.
The question is not what we would have to give up but whether or not god would have to sacrifice free will in order to prevent evil. You obviously think god is not smart enough or powerful enough to design a universe where free will exists but evil does not.
But to finally answer your question perry, Yes. I would give up almost anything if it meant that no woman or child would ever be raped again. I think I would even give my life if I could change that.
James,
You might want to scroll down a bit to see my thoughts on the matter. I think it’ll answer your questions.
James- I would also like to touch upon a point or two made in your comments of Dec 21 @ 6:31 am…
FIRST: Perry wrote on Dec 19 @ 7:58 am…
“There’s a popular idea that in a world where suffering exists, God cannot make sense.”
To which you countered…
“Not at all. The popular idea is that a god who is omniscient would be able to think up a world where free will can exist WITHOUT evil or suffering. You are the one claiming that your god is omniscient and omnipotent but then you just make excuses for his shoddy work on the universe…If he isn’t omnibenevolent then you are just worshiping him because he is powerful, and that is a shallow love.”
In Other Words–James…
IF–We are to think of GOD as Our Father–as Christ instructed us all to do…
THEN–You expect This Father to be the GOD-Equivalent of a “Disneyland Dad”…
OTHERWISE–According to you–GOD is just a bastard who’s “worship” is no more than shallow fear of HIS Power.
Have I gotten your general gist–right?
btw…
Pain & Suffering Are Critically Important Teaching Tools–And Death IS The Task Master That Drives US All To GET JOBS DONE BEFORE IT’S…
Too Late–
To Make A Save…
or a CHANGE!… For Better… AND For Worse.
[IMPORTANT NOTE: I deliberately wrote "For Better AND For Worse" ... I know that the usual formulation of this phrase is "For Better OR For Worse"--AND THIS IS WHERE A SERIOUS PROBLEM IN OUR COLLECTIVE THINKING LIES... Because No Matter WHAT Happens--IT Will Make "Some Thangs" BETTER IN "Some Ways" For US...And At The SAME Time--The SAME Happening Will Make "Other Thangs" WORSE IN "Other Ways" For US ... And given enough time... we often come to see in this world & in our own lives that what we at first thought was "Better" really was NOT... and what we thought was "Worse" eventually turns out to be... The Really Good Stuff !! Rollercoasters ain't got nuthin' on what Marriage and Raising Children To Happy & Productive Adulthood Offers Those Who Are Tuned IN & Fully Engaged With What--ALL THIS--HAS TO OFFER.]
Merry Christmas & Happy New Year !!!
I believe that God needs people’s faith-filled prayer and action on His requests to affect things in the Earth realm. God is a spirit, He doesn’t have a physical body to act here in the Earth realm, thus at this point in history, He must act through people who are open to him.
Notice that before Moses led the Israelites out of Egypt and parted the Red Sea, that prior to that, those people cried out to God for 400 years while captive in Egypt. Four-hundred years worth of prayer culminated in spectacular supernatural phenomenon.
While Jesus was on Earth, how did He pray for people? He used “command prayers.” There are lots of references in the Gospels to Jesus saying that people’s faith healed them. In Mark 11:22-25, the LORD describes how words spoken in faith can affect things.
Moving onward to after He ascended into Heaven, we have the ministries of the Apostles. You’ll note that they often used “command prayers” as well.
Back to the God is a spirit point. Mankind was given a lease on the Earth. Man essentially runs things here in the physical world. But, that lease on the Earth will be over once the Rapture happens, from there some time after, the Great Tribulation will transpire.
The point of this is, God can’t arbitrarily walk around and “zing” things, unless His people are praying to allow it to happen. I think people erroneously expect God to operate like “Q” that god-like character from Star Trek the Next Generation who can manifest stuff instantly here in the Earth realm. Not until mankind’s lease is up, can God, as I understand it, operate in that fashion.
You’ve got to remember, after Adam and Eve sinned, it led to a host of ramifications that affected everything from physics, quality of life, relationship with God, and so much more. That’s why the Bible in part seems to be so verbose, because in a lot of ways, it’s like a legal document, that explains the ramifications of these changes due to the first sin, how God made a way for mankind to cope till the appointed time wherein He comes back.
In short, think of faith-filled prayer as opening up a stargate (Remember the movie and series Stargate?). By praying, you’re dialing in to God, from which a conduit, an opening between the spirit realm and the Earth realm happens. Faith-filled prayer does that.
A concomitant point is that enough “goods and supplies” need to come through that stargate before change happens here in the Earth realm. It may require hours of faith-filled prayer, days, weeks, months, or perhaps even years depending on the situation and people invovled. That’s why it’s always good to find people who’ve got this faith thing down to pray over a pernicious situation. And that’s why it’s important to consistently study and quote God’s promises and Scripture.
Some people are able to pray and things happen fast, while others, require longer. And then sometimes, things like praying for a BMW, certain jobs, millions of dollars, fame, etc., will see no answer, because it might not be in line with God’s will for that person’s life. But God wants people healed. Jesus as far as I can remember, never turned anyone away.
So how is God relevant? He’s relevant because he made an allowance for you to be saved from your sins through Christ. Sin is like a disease, or something visually abhorrent, that God won’t tolerate in His presence. Once that sin is covered by salvation through Christ, then relationship with God is truly possible.
He’s your Creator, closer, and more relevant than even our parents. Just as loving parents want to enjoy the company of their child, so the Father in Heaven wants to talk, hang-out, and enjoy your company.
My last post appears to have disapeared so forgive me if this is a double post.
I was obviously referring to god having to sacrifice free will in order to prevent evil. You seem to think that god is not smart enough or powerful enough to create a universe where free will exists but evil does not.
But to finally answer your question Perry, Yes. I would gladly give up all those things if it meant that no woman or child would ever be raped again. I would gladly give up my entire existence if it meant I could make it so no one would ever have to experience rape ever again.
Well–James…
The OBVIOUS Flaw with Your Plan is that–
You Can Only Speak For Yourself.
Dictators throughout all of history have coerced their subjects into sacrificing their free will in efforts to prevent &/or oppose evil and serve the “Common Good”…
Eyes Are Told What To See–
Ears Are Told What To Hear–
Voices Are Silenced–
Hands Are Tied–
Feet Must Move IN Lockstep.
In other words…
THIS IDEA’s Been Tried…
AND HAS FAILED–
Over & Over & Over Again…
And Yet–Here IT IS–Again… 8 /
ANYWHO–
GOD Freely Creates…
And Among The Many Things That GOD Created Are “Natural Laws”…
AND–GOD Made us IN HIS Image…
And So–
We Observe People In All Places & Times Having Come Up With Their Own Written & UN-Written Rules… Which Must Be Taught & Tested & Revised–As We Grow & Learn (hopefully) Ever Better Ways To Live & Move & Have Our Being…
Because We Are Free To… within certain limits… Experiment–
Which Implies That…
We Try “Something” Without Knowing Exactly How It’s Going To Turn Out… So We Do IT & Wait & See & Take The Measure of The Results & Draw Our Conclusions…
And “experiments” are often… messy.
James–You claimed that you are willing to give up your free will and even your entire existence… “if it meant that no woman or child would ever be raped again.”
Well–as a woman–I do appreciate your gallant offer–however… Thanks but No thanks.
It Would Be of Far Greater Meaning & Value To Our World To:
1) Identify What Motivates Rapists To Act
2) ID–IN Advance–Those Likely To Be Victims & Perpetrators And Make Preventative & Interceptive Moves IN Timely Manners… And…
3) Find The Ways & Means To Course Correct The Predictable Future Sources of The Problems That Generate Rape Perpetrators & Rape Victims.
MUCH IS BEING DONE–ALONG THESE LINES–ALREADY…
And You Are Free To Add Your Time & Talent & Treasure To Further Advance This Good Work–OR–if you prefer…to just sit back at a keyboard typing away your critique of god and the lousy, incompetent job he did while offering to “fix thangs” if you could by giving up your freedoms &/or life… It’s Your Choice.
There are many ways to sacrifice one’s life to make this a better world…Ask Any of Our Soldiers Who Are Back–For Now–From Iraq &/or Afghanistan.
Easy way to end rape: Castrate all men.
Easy way to get your life ended for you:
Try to castrate all men.
Interestingly enough Mary and Perry, you have both supported my point. You both make suggestions about how things could be changed in order to make it possible that rape would never occur again. This implies that it IS possible that rape might be able to be stopped.
Perry proposes a biological intervention while Mary proposes a psychological one. Perry’s method is the more flawed but at least he is looking in the right direction.
Most importantly, even though both of your methods leave something to be desired in their efficacy we have to realize that we are all imperfect humans and therefore our ideas and methods would be imperfect as well.
Of course, you are once again discounting the fact that your god is supposedly PERFECT. This would mean that he, in his perfection, could come up with the slightest tweak to our biology that would inhibit rape and would not change anything else in our reproductive systems.
Just because we can’t think of a way doesn’t mean HE can’t right?!
Since we know he is smart enough to come up with a way to do this that would not require wholesale castration or long hours of therapy, the question remains of why he has NOT done so.
Is your god really so interested in exploring so many avenues of free will that he lumps child rape on the plate as well? As I stated before we certainly do not have the ability to harm each other with merely our thoughts so he must have placed SOME limits on our ability to be evil to one another.
Do you honestly feel that your free will has been reduced by the lack of telekinetic powers? I certainly would not feel that my free will would be reduced if some tweak in my DNA made it impossible to rape someone.
James
James,
Implicit in your discussion is a whole set of theological propositions. You are making statements about how God “would be like” if he existed etc. Mixed in with a “why doesn’t your God do X”?
It’s fine if you want to do that. Just recognize that you are now firmly on theological ground. If you ask theological questions I’m going to give you a theological answer.
First of all, please explain how you know that a perfect God would not make a world where rape can happen.
Please explain how human being can have moral freedom if rape – or 1000 other things – are somehow made impossible.
You still haven’t answered my very specific question: Would you give up your rights to speech, to abortion, to do the things that you’re free to do?
You said you’d give up freedoms in order to stop rape. Would you volunteer to be castrated? It’s not a stupid question, it’s a serious one. Did not Jesus say:
27 “You have heard the commandment that says, ‘You must not commit adultery.’28 But I say, anyone who even looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 So if your eye—even your good eye—causes you to lust, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your hand—even your stronger hand—causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.
Would you volunteer to be castrated? I want to know – please answer.
James- #1 GOD is your GOD–too–whether you believe or NOT.
#2 When beings–such as ourselves–with our limited understandings try to define GOD’S PERFECTION…well–naturally–we’re going to make a perfect muddle of it–as you INSIST on doing in your written assertions.
#3 We’re told–To NOT Put GOD To The Test–Dude…
Your narrow focus on rape of women & children overlooks the fact that IF this were removed from the realm of Human Possibility For Committing Evil–THEN it’s absence from The List would merely serve to trump up other evil act(s) to a top spot.
We HAVE “Come A Long Way–Baby”… At Least–We’re FINALLY At A Point When Most Men DO Acknowledge Rape As An Evil Act–NOT To Be Counted Among Their “GOD-Given Rights”–As Men.
James–You Are To Put Yourself To The Test… Disciplining Your Self-Will To Be Ever Better Aligned With GOD’S…
ENOUGH of your whining that… if god were really so great then god shoulda-woulda-coulda set our “free” will on auto-pilot for not doing rape.
The Other Animals Have Been So… limited… to mostly instinctively modeled behaviors.
HuMans Are Made IN GOD’S Image–
We Have BOTH:
Greater GOD-Given Freedoms To Act–
AND–
Greater GOD-Given Calls To Act Responsibly.
Mary: Your entire comment is just one big rationalization for the lack of consistency between the bible and the natural world. Essentially all you just said was:
“God works in mysterious ways.”
Which is a cop out.
We’re told to not put god to the test? Of course you are because obviously he won’t pass. Platitudes like that come from centuries of priests who couldn’t answer the very same questions I’ve been asking you here.
“James–You Are To Put Yourself To The Test… Disciplining Your Self-Will To Be Ever Better Aligned With GOD’S…”
Aligning myself with your god?? Ok, so what does he say on the subject of rape? Lets find out.
2 Samuel 12:11-14 NAB) “Thus says the Lord: ‘I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.”
Did god seriously just give someones wife to another guy to have sex with? So you’re saying that I should be more like god by punishing a man by making his wife have sex with some other guy? Let’s try another one.
Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT “If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.”
Ok so god is saying that if you rape a little girl
(Remember they were married by about 12 at this point in history so any “young woman” would have been about 10 or so)
then your punishment is to pay 50 bucks and marry her?!??!? Are you freaking kidding me?!? This is the high moral standard you want me to follow?
Seriously have you even read the bible?
James,
You misquote Deuteronomy. This is what it says:
23 “Suppose a man meets a young woman, a virgin who is engaged to be married, and he has sexual intercourse with her. If this happens within a town, 24 you must take both of them to the gates of that town and stone them to death. The woman is guilty because she did not scream for help. The man must die because he violated another man’s wife. In this way, you will purge this evil from among you.
25 “But if the man meets the engaged woman out in the country, and he rapes her, then only the man must die. 26 Do nothing to the young woman; she has committed no crime worthy of death. She is as innocent as a murder victim. 27 Since the man raped her out in the country, it must be assumed that she screamed, but there was no one to rescue her.
28 “Suppose a man has intercourse with a young woman who is a virgin but is not engaged to be married. If they are discovered, 29 he must pay her father fifty pieces of silver.[c] Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he may never divorce her as long as he lives.
James- You ask… “Seriously have you even read the bible?”
I have not read all of it. It’s not necessary…
EXCEPT if one wishes to take these tortured trips through the Old Testament for it’s numerous examples of the earliest attempts made in the pagan world of the Middle East–Circa 2000+++ Years Ago–to reform First–The Jewish Nation’s Bad Habits that they’d picked up from their 2 centuries of slavery in the “fleshpots of Egypt”…
And These Messages That Were First Prepared For & Addressed To This Nation of Recently Freed Slaves–
To US–Who Enjoy The Benefits That 2000 Years of Christ’s Influence Has Graced Our World With…
These reminders of How IT Used To Be…can sound–
Simply Awful–
Which can THEN be Twisted…by those with their own agendas… to questioning…
How IT IS That… an omniscient-omnipotent-omnibenevolent god would ever have allowed THIS to happen in the first place–
therefore–god does not exist–or–even if there is a god–he/she/it is certainly not worthy of My Praise.
Is THIS Your Message–James ??
Let me feed you some of the NEW Testament…which might–hopefully–get your head out from where it’s been stuck–lately…
The Gospel According to John 1:1-5 (NABRE) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be. What came to be through him was life, and this life was the light of the human race; the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
IMPORTANT NOTE: Jesus Christ is BOTH: “Light & Life of The World” in the Wisdom & Understanding & Courage & Knowledge & Right Judgment & Piety & Wonder/Awe Sense–That MOST of US Usually Think of HIM As Being…AND…”Light & Life of The World” in the Universal & Metaphysical Sense–That THE BIG BANG & All That’s Happened Since–It’s All The Manifestation of GOD/CHRIST…and we each have our own share of some of the corners & times (and fun & mishaps !!) of The Greater Universal Body.
The Gospel According to Matthew 22:36-40 (NABRE) “Teacher, which commandment in the law is the greatest?” He said to him, “You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the greatest and the first commandment. The second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. The whole law and the prophets depend on these two commandments.”
AND… Because Tonight IS Christmas Eve 2011…
The Gospel According to Luke 2:1-14 (NABRE) In those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that the whole world should be enrolled. This was the first enrollment, when Quirinius was governor of Syria. So all went to be enrolled, each to his own town. And Joseph too went up from Galilee from the town of Nazareth to Judea, to the city of David that is called Bethlehem, because he was of the house and family of David, to be enrolled with Mary, his betrothed, who was with child. While they were there, the time came for her to have her child, and she gave birth to her firstborn son. She wrapped him in swaddling clothes and laid him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn.
Now there were shepherds in that region living in the fields and keeping the night watch over their flock. The angel of the Lord appeared to them and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were struck with great fear. The angel said to them, “Do not be afraid; for behold, I proclaim to you good news of great joy that will be for all the people. For today in the city of David a savior has been born for you who is Messiah and Lord. And this will be a sign for you: you will find an infant wrapped in swaddling clothes and lying in a manger.” And suddenly there was a multitude of the heavenly host with the angel, praising God and saying:
“Glory to God in the highest
and on earth peace to those on whom his favor rests.”
IMPORTANT NOTE: Mary had to give birth in a stable. There was no running water nor any of the usual people or items to assist at times of such… deliveries. And yet–as those shepherds and great artists of the world have all borne witness to throughout the centuries unto millennia… There He Was… THIS Child had arrived without His Mother having issued a drop of blood or waters or afterbirth associated with all other human births…9 months of growing and ever building pressures and then–A Bloodless Delivery.
The Blood & Waters Normally Associated With Birth Were Not Released Until 33 Years Later By Christ–From The Cross. HE Was The Birth–We Are The Afterbirth.
O Come O Come Emmanuel
We Ask GOD/Christ To Come To Us…
AND–At The Same Time–We State That GOD/Christ IS (already) WITH US…
IT Takes MOST of US A Lifetime of Circling These Truths To Start To Get A FIRM GRASP of All They Contain & Mean For US & The World–At Large…
James–I know I stated it already… but… it bears repeating…
Merry Christmas–
Which is a shorthand reminder that…
Thru Mary–Christ came to us–the masses of ManKind…
AND–of course–Happy New Year…Dude.
Perry:
Actually I did not misquote anything. I even gave you my source if you want to go check. But more importantly the Hebrew word used in the original was ‘Taphas.’
Taphas translates as:
“to catch, handle, lay hold, take hold of, seize, wield”
You will notice that nothing in your chosen translation resembles that word. It has a distinctly predatory meaning to it which is not all ALL reflected in your version. Now if you use a comparison website for all the different bible translations you will find that the most used version is “to lay hold of,” which certainly implies that the man is an aggressor. I certainly don’t “seize” my wife. Remember that some of the people translating the text have an agenda so you must read their versions with a grain of salt. My old testament religion professor was fluent in Hebrew and he suggested the NIV as a superior translation.
Incidentally I find it telling that you had no such translation error to defend god’s other horrible command to give somebodies wife to another man to have sex with without her consent.
Do you think god was right to have her forcibly raped to punish her husband?
Mary:
You seem to suggest that the Hebrews were allowed to rape women because they had picked up bad habits from the Egyptians and so god made specific rules about how and when they could rape them in order to reform them slowly.
Really?
How about instead you just say, “Rape is evil, don’t do it, so sayeth THE LORD.”
However when compared to the way women were treated in the rest of the bible it becomes clear that the book was written by misogynistic mystics who used religion to keep control of their females. I can certainly show you plenty of new testament passages to the same effect since you seem to think god gets a pass on all the evil he spoketh in the old testament.
How about this one. It actually means that god is mad at you for trying to teach me about christianity:
1 Timothy chapter 2:
“Also that women should adorn themselves modestly and sensibly in seemly apparel, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly attire but by good deeds, as befits women who profess religion. Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent.”
So god thinks you should shut your trap Mary. Oh and don’t wear gold or pearls. Or braid your hair.
What a load of crap!
Do you agree with god that women should not be allowed to teach or be my boss? It’s in the New Testament!
As to your question about my “message.” You are correct that I find it highly unlikely that an omnibenevolent being created our planet. Just looking at nature it is hard to believe. Every species on the planet lives in a world of kill or be killed. This just doesn’t fly with a being who you believe is Love incarnate. I just don’t see how “survival of the fittest” fits with “god is love.”
Not to mention things like earthquakes and tsunamis which provide pain and suffering indiscriminately. Why exactly do you think god left in the natural disasters? Childhood cancer and flesh eating bacteria weren’t enough?
James,
When I read Deuteronomy in the context of what came immediately before it, where a man is to be killed for raping a woman. It doesn’t make any sense to me to then interpret the following verse as meaning “If you rape a woman, you get to marry her.” That would make the two verses contradictory.
The old Matthew Henry commentary interprets it this way:
V. If a damsel not betrothed were thus abused by violence, he that abused her should be fined, the father should have the fine, and, if he and the damsel did consent, he should be bound to marry her, and never to divorce her, how much soever she was below him, and how unpleasing soever she might afterwards be to him, as Tamar was to Amnon after he had forced her, v. 28, 29. This was to deter men from such vicious practices, which it is a shame that we are necessitated to read and write of.
Re: “god’s other horrible command to give somebodies wife to another man to have sex with without her consent.” Do you know the particulars of this situation, why God said this and what actually happened later? Look it up and come back to me.
I don’t personally know ANYBODY who interprets 1 Timothy 2 as meaning women can’t wear jewelry. The number of women in the Bible who do wear jewelry make your interpretation suspect. I interpret this to mean that women’s #1 focus should be on their character not appearance and vanity. Have you read commentaries on this? Do you perhaps want to interpret this in the most negative possible light?
I interpret the command for women to be silent as confined to a specific context because Paul has female church leaders like Aquilla exercising authority over men. I interpret what Paul says in the context of what he does. I see the fact that the first witnesses to Jesus’ resurrection, all by itself, as being hugely significant in the New Testament view of women.
I understand that you are deeply disappointed in the woes of the world, to the point of having lost your faith. I am sorry that this has happened; I’m sure there’s a much larger story that I have not been privy to.
Christian theology makes it very clear that God made world that is not perfect. You are shocked and disappointed at this assertion but I haven’t heard a good reason why this is incompatible with an all powerful benevolent God. The entire setup of Jewish theology is in the context of a flawed world, and in fact the only reason we can recognize it as objectively flawed is our conception of perfection which comes from God.
Yes, earthquakes and tsunamis happen. So do cancer and blindness. It’s as though you think you are pointing out something the rest of us had not noticed. ???
James- RE: Your statements “You seem to suggest that the Hebrews were allowed to rape women because they had picked up bad habits from the Egyptians and so god made specific rules about how and when they could rape them in order to reform them slowly.”
REALLY–Dude–Is that ALL You “got” from My statements ??
P.S.
And Jimmy…FEAR NOT–
US Galz KNOW That There’s A Whole World of Difference Between What GOD REALLY Taught–
And What Most of The Guyz Caught.
Keep tryin’…
I have faith that You will find what You’re looking for… AND MORE–Some Sunny Day…U2 Will Be– BLINDED BY THE LIGHT !!!
“It doesn’t make any sense to me to then interpret the following verse as meaning “If you rape a woman, you get to marry her.” That would make the two verses contradictory.”
The problem you are having is you are not reading the verses in the context of the times. Daughters were property who must be virgins and therefore if your daughter was raped she could no longer be married to any respectable man and the father would not receive his dowry. This gem of a verse takes care of that little conundrum.
You want me to read the other verse in context? Lets see what it says. Ok reading down the page…Oh my!
I find the next little bit of verse to be particularly disgusting. In it god kills a baby because David was bad:
“12:13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.
12:14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.
12:15 And Nathan departed unto his house. And the LORD struck the child that Uriah’s wife bare unto David, and it was very sick.
12:18 And it came to pass on the seventh day, that the child died.”
What a wonderful loving deity that will kill your baby if you make him mad. Wait WHAT?!?!?
OK is this what you were talking about? This next bit is where god actually gives Davids wives away to another man like he promised. That man turns out to be…Wait this can’t be what you were talking about. The man he gives his wives to is David’s SON, Nathan! That’s just disgusting!!!!
“16:21 And Ahithophel said unto Absalom, Go in unto thy father’s concubines, which he hath left to keep the house; and all Israel shall hear that thou art abhorred of thy father: then shall the hands of all that are with thee be strong.
16:22 So they spread Absalom a tent upon the top of the house; and Absalom went in unto his father’s concubines in the sight of all Israel
Coincidentally god giving David’s wives to Nathan actually violates another commandment given by god in the 22nd chapter of Deuteronomy we have been discussing.
22:30 A man shall not take his father’s wife, nor discover his father’s skirt.
So it seems god punished David by making David’s son violate another of god’s laws.
Ok well I guess I missed the bit of context you were talking about.
In any case I think if we look at history over the last 2000 years we will find that we could go on arguing interpretation of the bible for the next 2000 and still not get anywhere. I suggest we go back to the original discussion.
“Christian theology makes it very clear that God made world that is not perfect. You are shocked and disappointed at this assertion but I haven’t heard a good reason why this is incompatible with an all powerful benevolent God.”
Actually christian mythology makes it quite clear that the world was made perfect for Adam and Eve and they screwed it up somehow. This of course is unjust to those who came after. Why should we not have the same chance at a perfect world to make our choices in? For that matter why not let us make our choices in heaven? It is obviously possible to make a choice to not love god in heaven since Satan did it. So by that we know that free will exists in heaven which is a perfect evil-free existence.
So if we know that you can have free will in heaven that invalidates your entire argument that certain types of evil are required for free will. There are certainly no tsunamis in heaven so why do we need them here if free will is possible in both places?
“The entire setup of Jewish theology is in the context of a flawed world”
Of course it is! The men who wrote it lived in a flawed world and they had to rationalize that with their idea of a loving god.
You suggest that my loss of faith comes from a “much larger story.” I will tell you that story if you are interested. As I learned about all the things that humans thought about the world in history I started to notice a pattern. We were wrong. A LOT. In fact if you look at almost every single supposition made by man about the world or the universe as a whole you will find that humans were wrong on their first try. Lets start with astronomy.
1. There is only one sun. WRONG
2. There is only one planet. WRONG
3. There is only one solar system. WRONG
4. There is only one galaxy. WRONG
5. There is only one universe. ?????
You see from this list that the first time we try to figure something out we get it wrong. Number 5 on the list is possibly right but do we know for sure? Would you bet your life on it? We were wrong every other time.
To me that is the history of man. We find ourselves in a place where we are ignorant of the world around us and so we make up pretty stories to describe it. Psychologists have found that humans are more likely to accept a conspiracy theory when confronted with an unknown than to simply say, “I don’t know.”
So Perry that is where my lack of faith comes in. Personally I think all religions were made up by men to explain their universe. Unfortunately they got it wrong. No biggie. All humans get things wrong the first time.
Does that mean I know everything or I claim to be wiser than them? Nope. I am just at the point on the list where I am confronted by ?????. In my philosophy it is just more intellectually honest to say, “I don’t know” than to make up pretty stories about the world.
Where does the Bible ever say that the world was made perfect for Adam and Eve? Show me chapter and verse.
Did God make Absalom do what he did… or did he choose not to prevent Absalom from succeeding?
If you find it disgusting that God would allow Absalom to copulate with David’s wives, you may also be offended by Isaiah 56:
9 Come, wild animals of the field!
Come, wild animals of the forest!
Come and devour my people!
Or Hosea 2:
2 “But now bring charges against Israel—your mother—
for she is no longer my wife,
and I am no longer her husband.
Tell her to remove the prostitute’s makeup from her face
and the clothing that exposes her breasts.
3 Otherwise, I will strip her as naked
as she was on the day she was born.
I will leave her to die of thirst,
as in a dry and barren wilderness.
4 And I will not love her children,
for they were conceived in prostitution.
Or Romans 1:
24 So God abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other’s bodies. 25 They traded the truth about God for a lie. So they worshiped and served the things God created instead of the Creator himself
Or Matthew 24:
16 “Then those in Judea must flee to the hills. 17 A person out on the deck of a roof must not go down into the house to pack. 18 A person out in the field must not return even to get a coat. 19 How terrible it will be for pregnant women and for nursing mothers in those days. 20 And pray that your flight will not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For there will be greater anguish than at any time since the world began. And it will never be so great again. 22 In fact, unless that time of calamity is shortened, not a single person will survive. But it will be shortened for the sake of God’s chosen ones.
Whatever you intend when you say “all powerful all loving God” has little to do with Jewish or Christian theology.
Question:
Do you want to have choices, or not?
Are you responsible for the choices you make, or is somebody else?
“Where does the Bible ever say that the world was made perfect for Adam and Eve? Show me chapter and verse.”
“1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.”
If god thought it was very good then the whole thing should be pretty damn perfect right? Are you suggesting that your god is completely responsible for every single flesh eating bacteria, every virus, and every single other poison or nasty thing in the world?
Most christians deny that an all loving creator would make these things and they blame it all on Satan sneaking in or the whole deal going to sh*t because Adam ate a fruit.
Do you even believe in Adam and Eve for that matter, or has the last 150 years of evolutionary biology convinced you otherwise?
“Did God make Absalom do what he did”
Totally missed the point. I was not questioning his free-will. I said it was abhorrent that it was god’s idea in the first place!
You conveniently skipped over the baby killing incident of course. You also failed to mention whether or not Satan making a decision in heaven violated all your “free will requires evil” ideas.
“Do you want to have choices, or not?”
We have already gone over this. We are obviously limited in some ways already and you still think we have free will! I don’t have telekinetic powers but I don’t think that reduces my free will! If god put a switch in my head that made my Johnson go flaccid when a woman said no, then NO I do not think my free will would be violated. I think HER free will would be EMPOWERED.
Please explain how you (along with millions of various Christians) equate “good” with “perfect”?
Based on scripture (and not presumption), where does the Bible ever suggest that earth was ever like heaven?
Yes I am suggesting that flesh eating bacteria was God’s idea. And that the world, as God made it, is still good.
You’ve certainly eaten a lot of things in your life. You’ve enjoyed it. Is that enjoyment not good?
Re: Babies – I have a question for you.
Does God, who creates life, have a right to take it away?
“Please explain how you (along with millions of various Christians) equate “good” with “perfect”?”
Are you suggesting that anything god does isn’t perfect by default? Does that mean god makes mistakes? Or do you mean he made it IMPERFECT on purpose? That of course would not be very moral of him. That’s like an engineer making a child seat Imperfect on purpose knowing that the kid in the seat will be ejected upon impact. You know what we would call that engineer?
An a$$hole.
This segues nicely into your question of the morality of god killing babies. Before I answer let me ask you a question.
If I discovered how to create life would I then be morally correct to sprinkle it with horrible disfigurement and disease? This isn’t just fantasy. As you may know humans have succeeded in engineering designer single celled organisms already and AI might be right around the corner with regards to Moore’s Law.
So if I created sentient life and then proceeded torture it what would humanity call me?
I would call the person who did that a monster. No amount of ‘Might makes Right’ philosophy would convince me otherwise. I believe that any being who was NOT a monster would feel the need to protect and nurture that life they created and remove any chance of arbitrary suffering and torment from its path. Now this does not preclude the need for discipline. But of course arbitrary acts of violence and disease don’t work very well as a disciplinary method. Especially when those acts strike the good and the bad equally like earthquakes.
I see no reason for any creator to get a pass on evil just because they were powerful enough to make me. If the 0.1% probability I give for your god existing is indeed correct then I would feel little desire to worship him based on his decisions to torture little children with starvation, violence and disease. Do not forget that you name him omnipotent and that means he has NO NEED to include ANY of those horrible things to get the exact same result he desires. An omnipotent being doesn’t have to “settle” for any version of a plan that ISN’T perfect. That of course means that he made it IMPERFECT on purpose.
If that is true then I would say we should call him the same thing as the engineer.
James,
God gave you freedom. If you do evil, that doesn’t make Him an a$$hole. That makes you an a$$hole.
You’ve suggested that you’d be OK with a switch inside your head that keeps you from moving forward when a woman says “no.”
You have that switch in your head. But you get to CHOOSE whether to throw that switch or not.
YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR LIFE. You don’t get to blame God. Nor do you get to call God an a$$hole.
God created a world that has freedom. Even bacteria have some level of freedom.
No man-made invention possesses that kind of freedom. Even the best computer in the world is as dumb as a box of rocks. But living things make choices.
In God’s world, there is something called collateral damage. You can object all you want, but it is the way it is.
But what you can’t do is claim that Christianity somehow turns a blind eye to any of this. Because it doesn’t. It faces all these facts head-on. You’re presenting a straw man caricature of Christianity that has little to do with its actual content.
You say you want a world where women can’t be raped…. but you won’t volunteer to be castrated. It sure sounds to me like you prefer to have your freedom. Your actions speak louder than your words.
You can’t have it both ways. Nobody gets to blame God for how he or she used their freedom.
God doesn’t get a pass on evil because He’s powerful. He gets a pass because human beings who are endowed with CHOICE made choices. THEY are responsible for those choices. You are for yours and I am for mine.
James,
I’ll reply to your latest comment as I get a chance. Meanwhile you had made the comment, you don’t believe in God because you’re a scientist and you don’t see evidence. Science actually provides the strongest argument. My background is communication theory. Which, when applied to genetics, gives 100% inference to design in biology.
Watch this:
http://perry.fingerprints.s3.amazonaws.com/index.htm
Or read this:
http://www.cosmicfingerprints.com/read-prove-god-exists/
The capacity for things to evolve is even more impressive, because it’s not random. Either one of these presentations lays a solid framework.
“God gave you freedom. If you do evil, that doesn’t make Him an a$$hole”
Look back at my last post and you’ll notice I didn’t mention personal evil even once. I only referenced all the evil things god kept in the plan like conjoined twins and Lou Gehrig’s Disease.
“You have that switch in your head. But you get to CHOOSE whether to throw that switch or not.”
Yes but the WOMAN doesn’t. THAT is my point.
“YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR LIFE. You don’t get to blame God.”
I didn’t blame anybody for my life. I love my life. Contrary to your thinking I am not mad at god for anything. All my loved ones are still alive and I grew up in an affluent upper middle class family so I wanted for nothing. MY marriage is going great and I just got a great job. The reason I don’t believe in your god is because I am a scientist and no one has given me sufficient evidence for his existence.
“No man-made invention possesses that kind of freedom. Even the best computer in the world is as dumb as a box of rocks. ”
Not yet. As a computer guy you should know that the very first computer with FLOPs equal to our brain will be made in the next three years. Does that meanit will wake up? Probably not, but it will double in capacity every 18 months after that. But anyways the point I was making was HYPOTHETICAL. I think it is telling that you wouldn’t answer my hypothetical question about whether or not I would be a monster.
“In God’s world, there is something called collateral damage. You can object all you want, but it is the way it is.”
There is no objection Perry. You just keep missing the point that an omnipotent being WOULD NOT NEED TO HAVE COLLATERAL DAMAGE. An omnipotent being has the power to get the exact same result without ANY DAMAGE AT ALL. Therefore any damage included in the plan would have to be intentional.
You still haven’t responded about Satan making a choice in heaven by the way. If he could do it then so could we and there is no reason why we couldn’t make that choice sitting in god’s presence, (without him being invisible).
“You say you want a world where women can’t be raped…. but you won’t volunteer to be castrated.”
Once again Perry this isn’t about my decisions. This is about the fact that god could make rape impossible without ANYONE being damaged because he is omnipotent. In any case I think being willing to die to stop it takes your bet on castration and raises it with my whole pot.
“But what you can’t do is claim that Christianity somehow turns a blind eye to any of this.”
Of course it doesn’t. The writers knew this was a problem and tried to rationalize it in the bible. They didn’t do a very good job of it but they tried.
I will leave you with a quote Perry.
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
James,
Man evolved. God then gave man a spirit and spiritual authority over nature. Man decided to use his authority to be at war with nature. We wanted the bull, we got the horns. So we’re plunged back into a “Darwinian” world. We have things like Lou Gehrig’s disease – a world where we detest the fact that if I win, you lose.
It’s your spiritual nature that revolts against that. It’s your spiritual nature that understands the world is terribly wrong, in a way that your dog does not.
As a computer guy I know that computers are not even 0.01% closer to being sentient than they were in 1953. A mind is a wholly different thing from a computer. A computer just obeys mechanical laws. You are a self with will and conscious awareness. Consciousness and computers, two entirely different things. Apples vs. bricks.
The universe is not a computer that God wound up. Beings like us are endowed with free will and that’s why we’re responsible for raping women and God is not. We can choose.
God cannot and will not violate the laws of logic. I completely understand what you are saying – that you think God could make a world where free will exists and still nobody would hurt anybody.
I have thought about this a lot. It may be possible. I think it’s possible if it’s impossible to believe a lie.
Why would God make a world where people can believe lies? I don’t know, but that does involve more freedom than not being able to believe them.
Thus far in the conversation you don’t want to believe in God. Why should I think God would want to MAKE you believe? God gave you the freedom to reject him. Do you not prize this free choice that you have – to be a skeptic, a non-believer, an infidel, or whatever the term du jour is?
I surmise that heaven is a place where the freedom to believe a lie has been taken away – at the user’s request.
But you and I still have to ask for that. You have to WANT it. It will never be forced on you.
Do you want it? If you do, Paul said: When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”
You rightly ask about Satan.
Leszek Kolakowski, the famous Polish philosopher who lived through the holocaust, said: “I can understand people who do not believe in God, but the fact that there are people who do not believe in the devil is beyond my comprehension.”
Even in the presence of God, Satan preferred to believe a lie. Revelation 12 says some very interesting things:
7 Then there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon and his angels. 8 And the dragon lost the battle, and he and his angels were forced out of heaven. 9 This great dragon—the ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, the one deceiving the whole world—was thrown down to the earth with all his angels.
12 Therefore, rejoice, O heavens!
And you who live in the heavens, rejoice!
But terror will come on the earth and the sea,
for the devil has come down to you in great anger,
knowing that he has little time.”
So let’s take your quote one piece at a time:
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
—> He has turned over a portion of his power to humans. Humans LOVE power. And we choose to do evil. Yes, he has limited his power! He has even said that He is not king of the earth, Satan is.
Welcome to the middle kingdom between heaven and hell. How do you like it?
Would you willingly surrender your ability to do evil to God? Or not?
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
—-> Humans are able, but not willing. We are malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
—–> From man.
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
—–> If you are able and not willing, then you get to be God. You choose who gets to be God every day. And God will not hold you back from that choice.
If you don’t like possessing that choice, then surrender your life to God.
As a chemist I can tell you that your idea about molecules being a code is flawed. Biochemistry will tell you that the evolution of DNA was merely the polymerization by the path of least resistance. We have already done this in the lab with RNA. The RNA evolved to a more efficient molecule and “added information” to itself just by mutating to form a more efficient “copier” molecule. This did not require any intellect but just thermodynamics. Here is a quick primer video. Feel free to skip to 2:33 for the good stuff.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6QYDdgP9eg&list=FLwJsKy1v7-yrtqOqqnCTmTQ&index=35&feature=plpp_video
So you see once you have a molecule which competes for better more efficient ways to copy itself and then you add 2 billion years you end up with us. We are merely survival machines for the immortal genes which reside within our cells. Its all just chemistry. In fact my physical chemistry professor, Robert Vergenz Ph.D., published a paper on how even solutions of chemicals can pass along information in the form of concentrations. His research alone invalidates your idea that information cannot be passed on without a designer.
Not so fast, James. No, DNA is not just chemistry, it’s a medium for symbolic digital communication. Nothing in this video in any way, shape or form explains the origin of the genetic code. To say otherwise is sleight of hand. Yet another version of “If you stir the bathtub long enough, presto, life somehow emerges.”
Please demonstrate with empirical examples how and when chemistry alone produces any encoder, communication channel and decoder, and a redundant coding scheme with error correction. These videos demonstrate nothing of the sort. (And I’m not even asking for a functional cell. I’m just asking for a naturally occurring code.)
Once you have an encoding/decoding system evolution and competition can be possible, but “polymerization” is not communication. For a rigorous definition of communication, see Shannon (1948). All codes we know the origin of are designed. This is because you cannot derive the relationship between symbol and referent from the laws of physics or chemistry.
If you believe you have an experiment that demonstrates the occurrence of natural code, a detailed specification is at http://www.naturalcode.org.
This one is great too. It gets more into how information is added to a genome chemically.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9u50wKDb_4&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL
Sorry Perry but just giving something a name doesn’t disqualify it as a mechanism.
Which part of the video did you believe violated the laws of thermodynamics? That is the only test it has to pass.
We have already produced RNA nucleotides from basic building blocks in the lab AND seen RNA evolve in a lab. As RNA is considered to be the precursor to DNA in the RNA World Theory that is a huge step in understanding how DNA evolved from basic organic chemicals.
What you need to do if you want to invalidate Dr. Szostak’s research is find a place in his mechanisms where an energy barrier exists for the natural formation of the chemical species. Otherwise evolving, self ligating chemical structures in a primitive form are nothing different than DNA at a basic level. Any mutations which enhance the ability of the nucleotides to compete would be passed down. If that isn’t communication I don’t know what is.
In other words, you have yet to demonstrate any point in the evolution from primitive chemicals to modern chemicals that requires any outside help.
Don’t feel bad, no one else has either.
James,
There is a level of beauty and order here that goes beyond physics and chemistry. When it comes into focus, another layer of organization in the universe becomes apparent.
Your computer always obeys the laws of thermodynamics. It obeys them whether it runs perfectly or crashes. It obeys them whether it has software installed or not.
The correct or incorrect function of software has nothing to do with thermodynamics. It also has nothing to do with chemistry per se. It has to do with obeying instructions. Again, a higher level of order.
Machines obey physical laws when they communicate via USB, TCP/IP, and ASCII. All these are languages.
No one has ever shown that languages come from chemical reactions. Our experience is that they only come from acts of choice by conscious beings. A being has to CHOOSE that 1=on and 0=off. Do you have any kind of personal experience that indicates otherwise?
Feeding energy into a system does not make it produce a language.
The genetic code (ie GGG is instructions to make Glycine) is isomorphic with other languages (ie in ASCII, 1000001 is instructions to make the letter A).
I don’t see anywhere in this presentation where Dr. Stostak has shown where codes come from. He’s conflating two entirely different things, thus obscuring one of the most important operations in biology: Programming.
I want you to see this, because once you do, you can’t “un”-see it, and it’s beautiful. Hubert Yockey put it this way: “There is nothing in the physico-chemical world that remotely resembles reactions being determined by a sequence and codes between sequences.”
None of these chemical experiments produce language. The laws of physics and chemistry and thermodynamics say absolutely nothing about language. DNA is language. Our entire, amazing information age is about language. And God also is about language. “In the beginning was the WORD and the Word was with God and the Word was God.” -John 1:1
Language doesn’t come from chemical reactions?!?!
I think your brain would have something to say about that. If it could talk of course. OH WAIT! It can!
I can tell you from my studies of neurology that language has a very DISTINCT center in your brain. Language evolved just like every single other trait we possess. In fact we can look out into nature and see almost all the steps evolution took to get there. We even see separate paths to get to the same destination, just like the eye.
In short there is nothing special about the evolution of the language center of the brain that requires any outside “help” from your invisible designer.
You also have not identified any barrier to the evolution of organisms from using RNA to DNA. We already know that RNA can evolve and pass mutations down to its “descendants” which allow them to be selected for in an evolutionary sense. RNA and DNA differ primarily only with regards to their sugar backbone!
This of course invalidates your second “specification.”
“2. Since the origin of DNA is unknown, the submitted system cannot be a direct derivative of DNA or produced by a living organism.”
We have a very plausible, testable, TESTED, theory for how life formed on the planet which requires nothing more than basic biochemistry. There is no insurmountable thermodynamic barrier for the chemical species to cross and with 1,000,000,000 years for an almost infinite amount of single celled organisms to compete in a vast ocean we have a very simple way that life evolved.
Once again if you want to prove this is implausible you need to find a way that shows the chemistry could not have occurred. Just saying that DNA is a magic language that requires a designer will get you NO WHERE. DNA/RNA is merely a class of chemical that can self ligate and polymerize when it really comes down to it. All the other features of the modern cell took a billion years to evolve. Don’t forget that the rate of replication in single celled organisms is MUCH faster than that of multi-cellular as well. This means that there were TRILLIONS of generations (if not more!) for each species.
Finally the second precept of your argument,
” (2) All codes we know the origin of are created by a conscious mind.”
is obviously a bold-faced assumption if you try to apply it to the origin of any code we DO NOT know the origin of. To use your words,
(!)Since the origin of some codes are unknown, we cannot say with any degree of certainty that ALL codes must be designed.
Since we cannot logically say that ALL codes in the universe are designed, and only that the ones we ourselves made are designed then it is illogical to make any assumptions on the subject. Therefore without any evidence to the contrary we must logically state that it is possible that all other languages NOT made by humans might in fact be natural rather than designed.
You are right. I am saying that language does not come from chemical reactions. Chemicals may be necessary but are not sufficient.
Your computer has lots of chemicals too but none of them explain the origin of Windows 7.
You may not understand the distinction yet. Show me where any of these RNA experiments produced an encoder, a decoder and code – a read-write system. Draw them out a la Claude Shannon’s model and label them in the same fashion as described at http://www.naturalcode.org.
None of these RNA strands produced in the lab contain any code! Nothing of the sort. They’re just strings of bases. You may need to educate yourself about communication systems and that’s OK. I’ve provided sufficient references for you to do that.
None of the experiments you cite have produced code; none have produced self-replicating systems according to Von Neumann’s definition of self replication. No life forms by the remotest stretch of the imagination. Nothing that by any proper definition of evolution actually evolves. Yet the IT department in a single cell is more sophisticated than all the companies in Manhattan.
There are a million codes. We know the origin of 999,999 of them – design by conscious agents. We don’t know the origin of one. This code makes TCP/IP look like it was designed by kindergarteners. Astonishing in its details and depth. Therefore we have 100% inference to design and no empirical evidence for anything other than design.
Hi Guyz- I’m back home again & just catching up on the backlog of email… and I see that this discussion continues…
James- For all the quibbles that I’ve had here & there with Perry–He’s Right In THIS Debate/Discussion/Analysis… Whether You EVER (come to) Agree… or NOT.
THAT said…
I do have just a “proverbial” 2 more cents to toss in…
KNOWING at the onset of an Experiment that producing RNA nucleotides is The Goal… And so–creating the conditions under which this can & does occur and then observing them even operating to a limited extent kinda like RNA nucleotides–As You, et al., Described Having Been Done…
And… From THIS–
Concluding that THIS plus a billion (or so) years yields A Planet Teeming With The Life That We Observe TODAY–As Well As Observe IN The Geologic Record… which… btw… INCLUDES what is known as the Cambrian Explosion and even Charles Darwin admitted that the SUDDEN appearance of all these Trilobites took a BIG Bite out of His Theory of Evolution…which He worked to… explain away… much as You are doing on other points–here…
ANYWHO–
Your belief that the RNA nucleotide cooked in a lab is all that’s needed to establish…”plausible, testable, TESTED, theory for how life formed on the planet which requires nothing more than basic biochemistry”…
IS NOTHING LESS THAN…
A Colossal “Leap of Faith” ON Your (and Others’) Part(s).
-Mary
P.S.
ALSO James-
RE Your Statements:
“I think your brain would have something to say about that. If it could talk of course. OH WAIT! It can!
I can tell you from my studies of neurology that language has a very DISTINCT center in your brain. Language evolved just like every single other trait we possess. In fact we can look out into nature and see almost all the steps evolution took to get there. We even see separate paths to get to the same destination, just like the eye.
In short there is nothing special about the evolution of the language center of the brain that requires any outside “help” from your invisible designer.”
The PROBLEM with Your line of thinking is…
You Have Narrowed The Definition of “Language”…to being a verbal/written/spoken ONLY Zone…When–IN FACT–We HuMan Beings Are Language Receptors – Processors & Transmitters ON EVERY LEVEL of OUR BEING. Good Mothers who were well nurtured–Themselves–”speak” to Their Own Children IN Every Language…
Tactile
Nutritional
Musical Auditory
Prosaic Auditory
Kinesthetic
Visual
Etc.
Etc.
Etc…
Therefore–
The definitions that You’ve been taught…
“from my studies of neurology that language has a very DISTINCT center in your brain”…
IS An Academically Narrowed & Focused Field of Study That Has Isolated “General Definitions” To Suit Its Own Purposes.
You–As A Student [NOTE: Even if You've completed Your a degree...I Hope We All Recognize THAT: We Must ALL BE--Lifelong Learners]–SO–
We Students Must ALWAYS KEEP IN MIND THE MUCH BIGGER PICTURE THAT EXISTS… Beyond The Scope of The Magnified View of A College Level Course of Study… or…
In next to NO TIME–U2–Will Become One of Those “Over-Educated Idiots” That We Have TOO MANY of ALREADY IN Our Institutions of Higher Learning & Business & Government… Who Lose Their Way & Lead US & The Economy Over the proverbial Cliff… over & Over & OVER AGAIN–MOST Recently IN 2007-2008… and I’ll spare You now–but I could trace the origins of the 2007-2008 Economic Collapse back to the 1950′s… and from there–it’s easy to see the general cycles that go back across the centuries…
And–The Absolute – Number 1 – Guaranteed MOST Efficient & Effective WAY To LOSE YOUR WAY IS…
To Think That The Universe, in general, And Life–IN Particular… was randomly generated and has no–
PROFOUNDLY INTELLIGENT–BEYOND ALL WE KNOW TO BE PROFOUNDLY INTELLIGENT & WISE…
CREATOR
“IS NOTHING LESS THAN…
A Colossal “Leap of Faith” ON Your (and Others’) Part(s).”
Mary I find it interesting that you are denigrating leaps of faith. Shouldn’t you be applauding me for making such a leap? Or should I be saying that you are wrong because all you have done is make a “Colossal Leap of Faith” about god?
In any case none of the studies I have referenced require faith nor does the fact that the researchers had a stated purpose invalidate their findings. The organic chemist who performed the research was testing to see if the basic building blocks of life could form spontaneously from chemicals that were even more basic than those we find in nature. If we could not find a way for those foundations of life to have formed then we would know that our current theories for how life formed were wrong. But since we did find a mechanism for their formation we now have more evidence to support the RNA world hypothesis.
However you are correct that most likely no amount of evidence will ever tell us exactly what happened. It has been far too long for any evidence of the actual event to remain for us to discover. What we want to know is HOW it might have happened and how likely an event it was. At this point it looks like the chemistry was pretty damned easy and we might expect to find the same thing occurring on all those planets the Kepler space telescope just found that look like Earth.
Secondly Mary please don’t get your basic biology from creationists. The bit about the Cambrian explosion gave you away. Just so you know, the Cambrian period lasted approximately 60 MILLION YEARS.
You and Perry both seem to think that those two studies are the entirety of the supporting evidence for the RNA world hypothesis. They are most certainly not.
Perry I would like you to go and do some research on RNA. You will find that the only difference between RNA and DNA is that DNA is a more stable version. Of course in the early stages of life you wouldn’t WANT a stable version. However one interesting thing about RNA is that it is resistant to UV light. Since we know that the primordial earth had no ozone layer to block UV rays it stands to reason that RNA would be a better platform on which to pass along information.
And yes Perry, RNA DOES contain and pass on information. You don’t have to take my word for it either. It says the same thing in all my textbooks and on almost every single webpage I’ve seen on the subject.
Here are a few to get you started:
http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/archive/rna/first.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC20907/?tool=pmcentrez
http://www.microbiologytext.com/index.php?module=Book&func=displayarticle&art_id=38
James,
I’m still not sure you understood my question. None of these synthetic RNA experiments produced RNA with digital encoders, decoders and symbolic code. They only produced chemicals.
If you disagree, demonstrate where any of these synthetic RNA experiments produced an encoder, a decoder and code – a read-write system. Draw them out a la Claude Shannon’s model and label them in the same fashion as described at http://www.naturalcode.org.
James- Nice Try–Bud… However–
I Thank You for drawing further attention to the “Leaps of Faith” point. Of course–I did NOT denigrate You for making a leap of faith–As You Have Suggested…
My point is that Today’s (as well as Yesterday’s & Tomorrow’s) “Scientists” take “Leaps of Faith” much of the time… only different terminology is employed and the Leaps of Faith are usually referred to as… The Underlying Assumptions.
The Larger Point IS That “Science” is NOT The Opposite of Faith–It IS Specialized Subset of Faith AND IF You Examine The History of Science You Will See That The Roots of Modern Science ARE LARGELY IN Christian Religions.
Secondly–Dude–please don’t make the assumption that I…”get [my] basic biology from creationists.” You Know NOTHING About Me. “Creationists” Err In Ways That Are Roughly–EQUAL & OPPOSITE–To The Ways That “Atheist Scientists” Err.
Lastly–You didn’t touch the Most Important Point that I made…
Namely that there are a Great Multiplicity of “Languages” That We Speak–And Our Whole Brain & Being IS Engaged IN Them All–NOT just…”a very DISTINCT center in your brain”…as You read somewhere in a neurology textbook.
ANYWHO–Many moons ago…
When I was a college student…
The points that You argue for…
“…to see if the basic building blocks of life could form spontaneously from chemicals that were even more basic than those we find in nature.”
…were summarized in a analogy known as the “Infinite Monkey Theorem”…
I’ll ignore–for now–the MANY PITFALLS of ALL “Spontaneous Generation” theories…and focus on the Monkey At A Typewriter For A Billion Years Story:
The typewriter represents the basic building blocks found in Nature…The monkey represents the RNA nucleotides that have “spontaneously” formed…and if given ENOUGH TIME the Laws of Probability (One of The Pillars of The Theory of Evolution) State That eventually the monkeys will compose the complete works of Shakespeare…i.e., Life.
Hilariously Enough…
In 2003–Researchers at a University in England were awarded a grant–funding a limited version of this thesis: Computer keyboards were set in the enclosures of 6 Macaques in zoo for a month. The findings were that…
“Not only did the monkeys produce nothing but five pages consisting largely of the letter S, the lead male began by bashing the keyboard with a stone, and the monkeys continued by urinating and defecating on it…”
Anyway–The OTHER Obvious Point IS…
Even IF The Monkeys DID Produce “Hamlet”…
IT Wouldn’t MEAN ANYTHING TO THEM…
Only To US–The Intelligent Observers–
Who’d Created This Situation & Set IT IN Motion…
We HuMan Beings Are The proverbial “Monkeys-in-the-Middle”…
We Are NOT GOD…
But Have Been Given God-like Intelligence & Freedom To Operate Creatively &/or Destructively & IN NEW WAYS PREVIOUSLY UNKNOWN…
Relative To The Rest of Creation…
Which is why each generation seems to come up with…
Brave New Worlds–
That Often Freak Out Our Parents’ & Grandparents’ Generations…
But ALSO OFTEN–Overlook Bloody & Floody Obvious & BASIC Points of… “Life, the Universe and Everything”* ELSE That Exists OUTSIDE of The Specialists’ Narrowed Fields of View & Focus–That Support & Sustain Their Life & Work…And Without Which– their “world” would shrivel & die.
* Thanks–Douglas Adams for THIS…
For the Whole “Hitchhiker’s Guide” Series…
AND for making a great reference to the Infinite Monkey Theorem in The Guide’s chapter 9:
“Ford! There’s an infinite number of monkeys outside who want to talk to us about this script for Hamlet they’ve worked out.”
Perry:
“None of these synthetic RNA experiments produced RNA with digital encoders, decoders and symbolic code. They only produced chemicals.”
None of those experiments were SUPPOSED to produce anything like that Perry. They were looking for the very beginnings of life, not the modern cell! Saying that RNA doesn’t pass on information because it doesn’t have all the complex modern biochemical machinery is like saying a paper airplane doesn’t fly because you can’t ride it to the moon!
If you had watched the video all the way through you would have seen this already. Go back to the first video I posted and start watching it at 7:52. That is the portion that deals with information being added to the genome to eventually get to the point where encoders, decoders, etc EVOLVED from the RNA. You see Perry you still haven’t shown a single piece of evidence stating that modern DNA could not have evolved from these types of simple cells.
Until you show an irreducibly complex system then I have no reason to believe one exists.
Mary:
““Scientists” take “Leaps of Faith” much of the time…”
Ok then what are all these underlying assumptions I’ve been making all these years?
“The Larger Point IS That “Science” is NOT The Opposite of Faith”
Mary science is nothing more than a method for discerning truth. It is a tool we use to sift through our ideas to detect their veracity. Science requires no faith because if an idea is not testable it remains an unknown. String theory is a good example. We have a huge amount of math that shows that all the particles in the universe are really just the expressions of tiny strings in alternate dimensions vibrating. Everything about it is internally consistent, and it even has the type of simplistic elegance that usually makes a good bit of science. Do we have faith that it is true then??!?
Of course not! We haven’t figured out a way to test it yet! Even the scientists who came up with it will tell you that they still don’t know if it is true or false.
Actually this example really makes a great metaphor to religion. The bible would be like their mathematical proofs that string theory/god exists. But since we have no way to test them then we can’t know for certain. In this case you must rely on blind faith for your belief, while I merely choose to hold my opinion until we have more evidence.
So you see there is no faith required in science.
Btw Douglas Adams was a renowned atheist. Lol.
In order to have evolution you have to have self replication. In order to have self replication you have to have a code first (Von Neumann 1966). The code has to be read by a decoder. Codes cannot evolve from something prior that does not evolve. You have to start with a communication system for evolution to exist.
I have not proven that a natural code is not possible; I have stated that no one has ever produced one. Nowhere in the history of science has anyone demonstrated that codes come from anything but a conscious, intentional design process. The genetic code is not only a code, it is 1 in a million in terms of its optimization for error minimization (S.J. Freeland 1998). From the standpoint of a communications engineer it is utterly brilliant.
Show me where the prof in this video, or anyone else, actually produced a naturally occurring code. A hand-waving explanation will not suffice. Diagram the encoder, the decoder and the communication channel. Provide the encoding and decoding tables as I have outlined at http://www.naturalcode.org.
By the way I am not going to let you off the hook on this one. As a communication engineer I understand the centrality of digital communication and its necessity in creating the beautiful forms of self-replicating cells. I certainly respect the fact that you are a chemist, and chemistry is enormously valuable. But chemistry is not nearly enough.
It falls far short of the total picture and I am sorry to say that whatever the motives behind the video etc, you have been quite deceived. As Norbert Weiner, MIT mathematician and father of cybernetics said, “Information is information, not matter or energy. No materialism that denies this can survive the present day.”
Please draw the communication diagram with tables and post a link.
Oh and Mary your whole diatribe on monkeys is flawed. Monkeys banging keys is a RANDOM process. The evolutionary process is a NON-RANDOM guided by natural selection.
And James- As For This Assertion…
“Monkeys banging keys is a RANDOM process.”
NOT TRUE–
And Thanks–AGAIN–For Picking On This Point So That I Might Include Some of The Rest of The Researchers’ Findings…
“Phillips … concluded that monkeys ‘are not random generators. They’re more complex than that. … They were quite interested in the screen, and they saw that when they typed a letter, something happened. There was a level of intention there.’”
SO–
The Monkeys DID Model The Sort of NON-RANDOM Selection That You Demand For Evolutionary Process Modeling.
The Closer One Examines ANYTHING THERE IS–
The Less Random-AND-More-Complex THAT…
little corner of the UNIVERSE–Becomes…
Until One FINALLY Starts To See That… IT’S ALL–
Irreducible Complexity.
Keep Searching–Dude.
PLUS- “Oh and Mary your whole diatribe on monkeys is flawed.”
DIATRIBE ?!?
And Here—I thought & hoped that the Million Monkeys At Typewriters For A Billion Years tale AND Actual Experiment would provide some—Comic Relief !!
Oh well…
You can’t win ’em all.
Hello James!
What Excellent Responses To My Post–Thank You For THIS !!
RE: “Ok then what are all these underlying assumptions I’ve been making all these years?”
REALLY ?!?
You’ve been “intellectually” AND ADMITTEDLY taking HUGE FLYING LEAPS of Faith Across Vast Canyons of Great Unknowns… canyons of magnitudes that would’ve made Evel Knievel (may He rest in peace) Proud… And You NOW have The Gall To ASK… “Ok then what are all these underlying assumptions I’ve been making all these years?”
Your “underlying assumptions [that You’ve] been making all these years” are found IN Your Own Words & Statements…
And Your Words Replicate The Same Types & Patterns of Leaps of Faith Across Underlying Assumptions That “Your Hero” Jack Szostak Makes IN The Little 10 Minute “The Origin of Life – Abiogenesis” Presentation…
Which… IS NOTHING LESS THAN…
A “Modern Day” FAIRY TALE…
And Backed By A Beethoven’s 9th Soundtrack…
Helping To Ensure It’s Appeal To Those WORLD CLASS Readers & Writers & True Believers of “Their Own” FAIRY TALES… 8 /
DUDE—
You’re Underlying Assumptions ARE THOSE COLOSSAL LEAPS Between Each of The Steps Outlined—
fatty acid vesicles form in ancient environment … … …
branching & breaking apart without loss of content (Do Tell) … … …
playing fast & loose with “spontaneous polymerization” such as observed with Phosphoramidate DNA (a compound Lightyears AHEAD of ANYTHING at THIS stage of “development”) … … …
SKIP LOTS OF STUFF & ARRIVE AT … … …
monomers base-pairing with single stranded templates and self-ligating spontaneously & in a rote manner of a random template … … …
And NOW The “Explanation” For “Just How” Lipid Vesicles That Can Grow & Divide + Self-Replicating Nucleotide Polymers Get Together & Become “Life”—
blah … blah … blah … rapid restatement of previous posits … … …
NOW—PRESTO-CHANGO! Rabbit-Out-of-The Hat-Trick-Type SWEEPING & (Sorry Dude) UNSUBSTANTIATED ASSERTION—
Mutation
+
Natural Selection
=
Increased Information
listing of several mutations helpful to the efficiency & effectiveness of the “cell’s” M.O. … … …
9:27: And that’s it.
9:30: A simple 2 component system that SPONTANEOUSLY forms in the pre-biotic environment…
9:38: …can eat, grow, contain information, replicate, and EVOLVE…
9:41: …simply through thermodynamic, mechanical, and electrical forces.
9:46: No ridiculous improbability…
9:49: No supernatural forces…
9:52: No lightning striking a mud puddle… [shout out to Douglas Adams for His caricature of Genesis]
9:55: Just chemistry…
9:57: Think about it. [at least for a few seconds—fer cryin’ out loud !! Szostak has presented an explanation designed for the Chemically Minded as to just WHY the “Boy Meets Girl(s) & Greets & Makes a Circle of Trust & Eventually Works Out Who IS The Right One & Marries—For Life” IS The All-Time Successful LIFE Model...And The LGBT &/or Multi-Player M.O.’s are unsatisfactory—if not--dead ends—No Matter What “Man-Made-UP” Rules Might EVER Be.]
Dr Szostak’s “The Origin of Life – Abiogenesis” Story IS A Harvard Professor of Genetics Allegory For The Vast Legions of Students Who Have Been (Mis)Led—NOT Just By Atheists—But By The MANY POOR EXCUSES FOR PASTORS & THEOLOGIANS Whose Self-Serving Lies “In The Name of God” Provided SO MUCH REASON To… NOT ONLY Doubt Religion—But GOD—Himself…(Although–I will say…and IN All Fairness–That Atheists Have Demo’ed As Much–IF NOT MORE–”Self-Serving Interests” As Their Targets & Detractors Have)…
Many Atheists have worked to lead as Many People As They Could Sway to doubt The Existence & Presence of GOD…
To–Quite LITERALLY–throw the baby out with the bath water…
To characterizing babies as the source of all the trouble in the world…
While preferring to cook up New Life in the laboratory.
You KNOW That Dr Szostak tossed in a BIG LIE for Y’all to Think about—And Hopefully “Get” … When He Dropped IN The Line:
Mutation + Natural Selection = Increased Information
Mutations are comparable to “Lies”…
And Lies are those bits of info that… go around the world several times and for several generations while truth is still getting its boots on… because we… naturally prefer them to Inconvenient Truth.
Mutations (Lies)
AND (+)
Natural Selection (Our Preference For The EZ Lies)
WILL RESULT IN (=)
Increased Information (Knowledge Gained Through The Mistakes Made & Unnecessary Hardships Suffered As A Result of Believing & Acting Upon Info That IS NOT TRUE)… Maybe… Later–IF We Admit Where & When & How We Were WRONG.
I’ll Repeat The Quote Perry Supplied To You From Norbert Weiner, MIT mathematician and father of cybernetics:
“Information is information, not matter or energy. No materialism that denies this can survive the present day.”…
So…
Atheist Dreamer…
What Wierner [NOTE: Wierner—Among Many Others—INCLUDING Many Former Atheists Who Kept UP Their “Street Cred” While Putting Vital Course Corrections OUT THERE In Ways & By Means Designed To... NOT “Frighten The Horses” (i.e., You—Their Students)] is giving You is a—WAKE UP—Call…
And You Can Choose To OPEN YOUR MIND To The WHOLE TRUTH THAT IS OUT THERE… OR… Remain Stuck IN The Mindset of The Past Quarter-Millennium or so (give or take) AND Miss Out ON The REAL PARTAY GOIN’ ON & FORWARD @ THIS:
The Threshold of The 3rd Christian Millennium.
Do—
As Szostak STATED EMPHATICALLY For His “Bottom Line”…
Think about it.
-Mary
Perry:
The natural code I am suggesting IS DNA. The only reason you have stated on your web page for NOT using DNA is the fact that we had no understanding about how it originated. As I have repeatedly stated, we now have a plausible explanation for that very occurrence. We do not know that it is the way it happened, but we know that it was definitely POSSIBLE for it to have happened in that way. Since we know there is at least ONE way for it to have happened naturally then we know that no invisible deity was required to make it happen. This does not preclude the existence of said deity, but it certainly does not require it in any way for the chemistry to occur.
You wanted evidence so I went and found it for you:
“Evolution of functional nucleic acids in the presence of nonheritable backbone heterogeneity”
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3158193/
Here is a quote from the abstract if you don’t have time to read it:
“Multiple lines of evidence support the hypothesis that the early evolution of life was dominated by RNA, which can both transfer information from generation to generation through replication directed by base-pairing, and carry out biochemical activities by folding into functional structures.”
You’re going to love this one:
“‘Accelerated Evolution’ Converts RNA Enzyme To DNA Enzyme In Vitro”
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/03/060327083737.htm
So you see the ball is in your court to somehow show that DNA could not have evolved from RNA.
Mary:
I don’t know exactly how to respond to that post. I suggest you read the papers I posted for Perry as they will alleviate some of your confusion about how Dr Szostak came to his conclusions. He certainly didn’t require any leaps of faith.
You feel that these explanations are plausible (“we now have a plausible explanation for that very occurrence”). In my book, “plausible” means supported by empirical evidence. So…. kindly draw the digital communication system with encoder and decoder, fill in the encoder and decoding tables and demonstrate how you get code from chemicals.
James–Sweetie…
It is You who have many half-baked ideas that are confused…
And Your Understanding of The Real Substance of The Issues of Communication IS Too Lacking For You To “get” What IT IS That You–thus far–ARE NOT “Getting”…Keep Working ON Perry’s Questions To You.
Let us recall–for the record–Your rather condescending statements to Me of:
Science v. Faith
[NOTE: RE: Your condescending tone--It's OK... I've certainly teased You--plenty.]
“Mary science is nothing more than a method for discerning truth. It is a tool we use to sift through our ideas to detect their veracity. Science requires no faith because if an idea is not testable it remains an unknown. String theory is a good example. We have a huge amount of math that shows that all the particles in the universe are really just the expressions of tiny strings in alternate dimensions vibrating. Everything about it is internally consistent, and it even has the type of simplistic elegance that usually makes a good bit of science. Do we have faith that it is true then??!?
Of course not! We haven’t figured out a way to test it yet! Even the scientists who came up with it will tell you that they still don’t know if it is true or false.”
Well James-
Believe IT or NOT–The Working Definition of The Faith For Christians IS…
TRUTH & GRACE
It’s WHY LOTS of Christians ENTER Fields of Science For Study & Work–As There IS NOTHING “Incompatible” Between Christian Faith & Science…
Except at some fringes where there are some Christian Sects opposed to some Scientific Findings AND some Atheist Scientists opposed to some Christian Teachings. I even have disagreements with Some Points of Doctrine of Some Christian Denominations–Myself…as well as a goodly share of disagreements with many Atheist Conclusions.
ANYWHO–
Instead of Sticking To THE TOPIC of an Abiogenic Source of Life–You jumped over to String Theory for an example of something that scientists do not yet…”have faith that it is true”…because no one’s…”figured out a way to test it yet!”
1. The safer way to state Your “faith” in scientific conclusions is to…Have The Greatest Amount of Confidence IN One Theory v. Another… Because…
2. If There’s ANYTHING That You Ought To Know By NOW–It’s That Our Ideas & Theories Are As Good As The Accuracy of Our Most Sensitive Tests & Measurements… Which Keep Improving & Evolving… AND–As Our Tests & Measurements Improve & Evolve–So Do Our Scientific Ideas That Are Derived From Them.
Let’s look at Your Further Analysis–
“Actually this example really makes a great metaphor to religion. The bible would be like their mathematical proofs that string theory/god exists. But since we have no way to test them then we can’t know for certain. In this case you must rely on blind faith for your belief, while I merely choose to hold my opinion until we have more evidence.
So you see there is no faith required in science.”
You obliquely identify one of the grave weaknesses by which Protestantism–for all its positive contributions–undermined Christ’s Teaching… sola scriptura.
The Power of The Written Words of Scripture IS NOT TO Be Underestimated…
But GOD “Writes” Creation & Living Beings…
So–Simply By Living Our Own Lives–Our Life Experiences Allow US All To “Read” GOD’S Messages…
And Those Privileged To Study At University Levels…
Get To Read GOD’S fine print & footnotes–
Which Are OFTEN Found To Be…
Endlessly Fascinating–
So… Enjoy !!
In The Meantime…
Remember those silly old fuddy-duddy scientists of long, long ago that Szostak “dissed” for being the “heroes of creationists”… Francesco Redi… Lazzaro Spallanzani… Louis Pasteur…
Take More Biology–Dude. Only Someone Quite Ignorant of Their Work AND All That’s Been Learned In The Years Unto Centuries SINCE THEN–Would Fall For The “Yarns & Lines” That Szostak Has Lately Been Spinnin’ & Handin’ OUT–AS “SCIENCE”…
I Told You Earlier…
Jack seems to be getting rather Artistic at THIS Stage of His Career.
Your “book” on plausible is slightly off. You are confusing plausible with ‘Probable.’
Plausible means:
“1. Seemingly or apparently valid, likely, or acceptable; credible”
Now that we have that out of the way we need to tackle some confusion on my part. You just said,
“kindly draw the digital communication system with encoder and decoder, fill in the encoder and decoding tables and demonstrate how you get code from chemicals.”
My confusion stems from the fact that you already did it for me here:
http://www.cosmicfingerprints.com/solve/
On a graphic labeled fig 5.2
“Hubert Yockey’s DNA communication channel model.”
I am not proposing any other codes than you already have Perry. I am only saying that you were incorrect to label that code as UN-natural. You have yet to provide a single piece of evidence that DNA could not evolve. On the other hand I have shown you paper after paper of peer reviewed science showing that not only can RNA evolve and pass on information but that we have glimpses of how it evolved into DNA.
Honestly your entire point seems to have devolved into a version of the “God of the Gaps” argument. If you are unaware of it here is a link:
http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=God_of_the_gaps
Essentially the god of the gaps argument is really just a version of the logical fallacy, the “Argumentum ad ignorantiam.”
http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Argument_from_ignorance
James,
You are presuming that DNA is naturally occurring but you do not know that. Nor do we have any direct evidence to suggest that codes can come from anything but a conscious deliberate being.
The probability of DNA being naturally occurring is statistically zero, based on the actual evidence we have.
The burden of proof is not on me to prove that it could not evolve. That is not the scientific method. The scientific method is to produce some kind of inference that it can.
I have mapped ASCII and DNA. Could make identical maps for 1000 other codes. If you want to claim that codes can occur naturally, you have to fine ONE example that you know is naturally occurring and make the labels. Until you map a naturally occurring system to Shannon’s model, you have zero evidence. Meanwhile I have 100% evidence that codes are designed.
This means we literally have infinitely more evidence for design than for natural processes: 100 divided by zero. Until you come forward with a single counterexample, the naturalistic hypothesis for origin of life has no support.
The RNA world hypothesis is a patchy, fragmented, controversial-at-best explanation of where the hardware came from. It says absolutely nothing about where the software came from.
Let me remind you that science itself came from theology. Science got started in ancient China; in ancient Egypt and Greece and Rome; and in Islam. But it never went anywhere. In those cultures, it sputtered and coughed and died.
Why?
Because those cultures did not have a theology to support it.
Science rests on faith that the universe is governed by fixed, discoverable laws. That it operates without the need for constant intervention by the creator and that the creation has a degree of freedom to follow its own course.
Islam does not teach this; Greek and Roman mythology did not teach this, and neither did the Egyptian or Eastern religions.
Wisdom of Solomon 11:21, which was written 3,000 years ago, says, “Thou hast ordered all things in weight and number and measure.” This is found in the apocrypha, i.e. the books of the Catholic Bible.
In Islam, the will of Allah is absolute and the world functions according to His inscrutable purposes. In Roman and Greek theology, thunder and lightning occurred because one deity was at war with another. Aristotle’s claim that heavier objects would fall faster was often repeated but almost never tested – even though anyone could easily stand on a chair and put his theory to the test.
Chinese mysticism similarly provided no grounds for an orderly, mechanistic universe.
Only in Christian Europe was there a basis for believing that a search for discoverable laws would be richly rewarded. And it’s no coincidence that a large number of the great scientists – Newton, Copernicus, Galileo, Maxwell, Boyle – were deeply religious and considered the practice of science to be an act of worship. A way of peering into the very mind of God.
The core belief of science – that the universe is orderly and discoverable – is a philosophical and theological proposition. It is not scientifically provable. It can only be verified after a hypothesis is made.
If you love science, thank a theologian.
Good morning Guyz-
James–At The Very Least–
You’ve CLEARLY Demonstrated WHAT A TRUE BELIEVER You Are IN THIS: Chemistry Offers A “Plausible Explanation” For The Origins of Life That Do NOT Require ANY Interference By ANY “invisible deity–To Make It Happen”…
And You INSIST ON Remaining “Bravely Oblivious” To The Shortcomings of Each Step of Your “Plausible Explanation” That Require A Fevered Imagination To …ahem… String Them All Together.
Like ALL People Who “Stick To Their Guns” In The Face of…NOT merely “plausible”–But Superior Arguments–You Won’t “Get” These OTHER Inconvenient Truths Because…
1. For WHATEVER Reason(s)… You Don’t WANT To
AND/OR
2. You May Not Know ENOUGH Yet To Know WHAT You Don’t Know…
But You know just enough to think…
to TRULY BELIEVE and Vigorously Assert that–
these fatuous ideas & explanations… COULD WORK!…
OR–
As I REALLY Suspect IN Jack Szostak’s Case…
He Created A Big Game of “Chemistry Kitten Ball” For Chem Majors To Bat Around…Hopefully & Eventually Figure Out How To Unwind…Learn Other Important Stuff From The Chemical Analogies of HuMan Interactions Presented…As Well As Have A Good Ol’ Collegial Time By The Whole Process… And… Ultimately–Move ON… With ALL These Lessons & Games People Play–Learned… Even If NOT Yet–COMPLETELY MASTERED.
ANYWHO–
The Key Point–
That Unlocks So Many-MANY of The World’s Mysteries…
IS GIVEN TO US All At The Get-Go of The Gospel According To John…
The Entire Universe–
Visible & Invisible–Tangible & Intangible-Yet-Present…
IS GOD MADE MANIFEST
And So–We DO OBSERVE…
IN Every Direction & IN Every Field of Study & AT Every Level of Study…
Beauty & Harmony & Parallel “universes” That Reflect INCREDIBLY COMPLEX ORDERS BEYOND OUR EASY IMAGINING…
Which IS WHY “Our Lives” NEVER Turn Out To Be Like We thought They Would Be… Because OUR Predictions Are Based On Our own… pitifully limited experiences… Which Get Challenged & HOPEFULLY Greatly Expanded Out IN The Larger World of Higher Educations.
I’m going to turn the Point of View of these looks at cells in Another Direction–away from the focus on the molecular level–and OUTWARD–To What We Can Observe From Images Sent To US From The NASA Satellites That Explored The Outer Regions of Our Solar System…
And–of course–from somewhere out beyond Saturn…
A picture taken of the Planet Earth LOOKS LIKE…
a single cell.
So the “Eyes of Faith” apprehend…
The REASON WHY The Truest Answer To The “At What Point Does A Life Begin” Question IS–At Conception…
IN Ways & BY Means That Rely ON NO Religion’s Doctrine.
Was All The Time & Talent & Treasure That’s Been Poured INTO The Space Programs–ESPECIALLY Since Sputnik Was Launched–WORTH IT ?!?
You betcha !!
Perry you have said that neither of us have any clue where DNA came from.
“the origin of DNA is unknown”
-Perry
Since neither of us know, then why do you presume it came from an intelligence? Did you read the page I left you on the logical fallacy? It has a list:
2000 years ago: “We do not know what causes lightning, therefore it must be a god throwing lightning bolts from the sky.”
1000 years ago: “We do not know what keeps the planets in their courses. There must be angels pushing them along.”
500 years ago: “We do not know what causes diseases, therefore they must be punishments from God.”
200 years ago: “We do not know how the many species of plants and animals could have appeared, therefore God must have created them.”
100 years ago: “We do not know how the universe started, therefore God must have done it.”
60 years ago: “We do not know how genes are passed from parent to child, therefore traits must be imprinted upon the soul.”
If I add yours to the end of this list would it look any different?
Present: “We don’t know where DNA came from, therefore God must have made it.”
Seems to fit right in to me. Wouldn’t it be better to hold our opinion until we know for sure? That way we won’t look foolish to the people having this argument in 100 years.
On a parallel subject, how do you think god made DNA? You obviously think your god used evolution to make the diversity of life on the planet. Why does it seem like such a jump that he would use evolution to make DNA too?
“The burden of proof is not on me to prove that it could not evolve.”
The only reason that burden lies in your lap is because you have stated it couldn’t. You have made a positive claim that certain chemical species require intelligence to exist. Therefore you must either defend that claim or accept that no one has any reason to accept it until it is defended.
“The scientific method is to produce some kind of inference that it can.”
I have shown you peer-reviewed papers that show how RNA evolves. I have also shown you peer-reviewed papers that show that RNA will form spontaneously in the pre-biotic conditions thought to be present at the time. If that doesn’t infer at least the possibility that a chemical MIGHT have formed on its own and evolved into a more complex form then I don’t know what will! I’m not saying that we must all jump on some band-wagon, but it does infer at least the possibility of a natural origin for DNA. If it doesn’t then what exactly is your threshold for an ‘inference’ that DNA might have evolved?
On a side note 100 divided by 0 is not infinity. It is undefined.
James,
I’m going to say something rather unexpected. Hear me out.
My premise:
1) Any theory about God that unemploys a scientist is probably wrong.
2) Any theory about science that seeks to eliminate God is probably wrong.
Let me explain what I mean by that.
If a camel can evolve into a giraffe naturally, then saying “God did it” is abdicating the responsibility of science.
At the same time, if the perceived need to get rid of God causes you to deny order, structure, and systematic behavior in nature, you’re abdicating the responsibility of science.
The JEWISH/CHRISTIAN conception of science is that God created a supremely orderly cosmos. It operates according to fixed laws and that cosmos has been granted the freedom to develop and take its own course. I elaborated upon that in my last post. As a Christian I think that a systematic theory of evolution is absolutely scientific and absolutely honoring to God. Because it lines up very well with Judeo-Christian cosmology.
Other religions give us mystical, lightning-bolt throwing gods which offer no foundation for science. Atheism offers no foundation for science either because in atheism, everything by definition happens for ‘no reason at all’. Atheism denies teleology and makes Natural Selection the champion of everything, in which nature selects that which randomly, accidentally and luckily occurred.
This is not science. Atheists gave us the “Junk DNA” theory which has crippled genome research 20 years. The Junk DNA theory has no place in contemporary discussions about the genome.
Know this: I am 100% in favor of a naturalistic explanation for the origin of coded information.
If you can fill in the diagram that I’ve been asking you to fill out, I’ll write you a check for $10,000. And by the way you’ll also probably win a Nobel prize. My ten grand is a pittance, I admit. But I am absolutely in favor of someone making this discovery. It would be on the same order as the discovery of quantum physics or the splitting of the atom or the discovery of DNA.
But nobody to date has done this. And the papers you’re referencing, according to a rigorous definition of evolution [self replication based on obeying instructions in digital code] might as well be astrology. They pretend to explain evolution but they haven’t explained it AT ALL. They’re pretending that something akin to polymerization is self-replication. It is absolutely not. It is sleight of hand, it’s irresponsible, and they are making up just-so stories, theories that have never been tested and calling it science. That’s called lying. I know they’re peer reviewed etc etc. But this approach barely qualifies as science. For very obvious reasons that any reasonably educated person can grasp.
Why? Because they never address the question of the origin of information. They only pretend to.
All codes we know the origin of are designed. How are they designed? As a chemist you may have never given this much thought. As a communication engineer I’ve given this a LOT of thought. Because I worked with people for years who created de novo communication protocols every day. It always involves delicate, conscious choices. Always. It never ever happens by accident. There are no exceptions.
Everything we know about programming, languages and computer science indicates design in biology. Everything.
Is that design embedded in the universe? Is it somehow encoded into the laws of physics in a way that we do not yet detect? Or is it the result of the hand of God?
Until someone discovers a naturally occurring code, everything we actually know about communication theory, linguistics, computer science and physics and chemistry indicates the latter.
In the sincere interest of furthering science, I offer you ten grand. Fill in the diagram and the money is yours.
James- I’m gonna START where You Left Off…with Your “side note”:
“On a side note 100 divided by 0 is not infinity. It is undefined.”
Dude–According to Your Rules that We’ve observed You INVOKE throughout this Entire Discussion/Debate:
“100 divided by 0″ COULD PLAUSIBLY BE “infinity”–
Therefore–Since a “100 divided by 0 is infinity” universe COULD EXIST–There is NO reason to think that it does NOT exist…
Ergo–We Must All Assume That “100 divided by 0 is infinity” IS TRUE– and proceed in Our analysis from There.
RE:
Your Last Paragraph…
“I have shown you peer-reviewed papers that show how RNA evolves. I have also shown you peer-reviewed papers that show that RNA will form spontaneously in the pre-biotic conditions thought to be present at the time. If that doesn’t infer at least the possibility that a chemical MIGHT have formed on its own and evolved into a more complex form then I don’t know what will! I’m not saying that we must all jump on some band-wagon, [OH YEAH ??--BECAUSE THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT YOU SEEM TO BE SAYING TO ANYONE STILL PAYING ATTENTION !!] but it does infer at least the possibility of a natural origin for DNA. If it doesn’t then what exactly is your threshold for an ‘inference’ that DNA might have evolved?
James–If I were to exercise My rights and file a “Freedom of Information Act” request…I could bury You in “peer-reviewed papers”…from Every Level of Every Type & Stripe of Activity engaged in by Our Nation–Including Scientific Efforts–that amount to NOTHING MORE than trumped-up lies, snake oil & assorted other mixed-messages passed along under Cover Sheets of jargon particularly selected to cue desired responses from targeted readers.
Sorry–James…
Anyone who’s been around for as long & in as many Halls of Shame as I’ve been witness to KNOWS–
When Someone Refers You To ANY “Peer-Reviewed Papers”–
Your NEXT Question Needs To Be–WHO Were The Peers ??
NIH Funded Research Has Served To Direct & Drive Much of Our Nation’s Healthcare Policies For The Last 40+ Years of My Adult Life…
AND While These Studies May Seem To Be Solid Pieces of Work To Most Educated People–Including Fellow Scientists…and especially to those young & “hungry fish” just commencing their swim up the channels…
Virtually ALL of The NIH Funded Studies–at least those funded during the Reagan Era–Were Statistically Invalid Studies…
1. Most of the researchers had enough statistics classes “under their belts” to make their projects seem “right”…and…
2. Once Somebody managed to win funding for Their Work–then its design was used as a template by Everybody Else still fishing for funding…
3. In no time–The funded studies were Published in Peer-Reviewed Journals AND Presented at Peer-Attended Meetings That Counted As CME (Continuing Medical Education) Credit For The Attendees…and there was much rejoicing… Sound… Familiar ??
On a side note…
Of course–Many Research Projects GO ON For Years & The Research Team Issues “Progress Reports” Along The Way…And When Someone’s Research Would Appear To Be Yielding Results That Were NOT The “Politically-Correct” Answers Sought–Can You BELIEVE IT ??–THIS Project Would Be THE ONE To Get DeFunded…During The Next Fiscal Review Cycle !!
NO ONE IS Ever Completely “Immune To” or “Above” Political Pressures–Certainly NOT ANYONE IN ANY of The Fields of Science… The “Deep Throat: Follow the money” parallel for the Scientific universe is… Follow Their Funding.
James–You started off today with a “copy & paste” from Your Friends at Iron Chariots.org–a list of 2000 years-worth of “arguing [for God] from ignorance…”
What You’ve been arguing–that random RNA nucleotides could’ve evolved into Today’s DNA–IS Arguing From Ignorance–of BIOLOGY.
The Real Point–
THAT PERRY HAS MADE TO YOU TIME & TIME AGAIN–
But To Which You Remain Steadfastly OBTUSE:
To produce the chemicals in “The Lab” that are known to be the chemicals comprising the cell’s genetic codes…
IS NOT TO HAVE ALSO PRODUCED– The Codes…
Even IF YOU SEE IT “HAPPENING”… in Your own dreams & sketches & reported conclusions.
btw…
The “Iron Chariots” website that You’ve cited a couple times is an Atheists’ Equivalent to a “Creationist Museum”… “You” Have Created Your Own “SPACE” That Presents ONLY The Info That Serves Your Pre-Determined Points & Purposes.
COMPARE:
Your “Iron Chariots” webpage for “God of the gaps”…
http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=God_of_the_gaps
WITH The Real-Deal “Wikipedia” “God of the gaps” webpage…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_of_the_gaps
NOTE:
1. The “God of the gaps” criticism originated with Christian Theologians
2. The Wikipedia version of “God of the gaps” is the more historically accurate & complete version of this information than what one finds at wiki.ironchariots–
Which–As One Would Expect From The URL Name–Copies The Real Wikipedia’s General M.O.–But Truncates / Bends & Otherwise Straitjackets-To-Serve-THE-Agenda…the info that is presented on their pages
3. The info presented at wiki.ironchariots website is at a rather juvenile level…much like the juvenile level of info found at creationist sources–only ironchariots.org uses fewer pictures–making its content “appear” to be More Mature than it actually is…which I ought to know from all My years of teaching & leading this age group… 8 /
A COUPLE LAST NOTES:
4. Despite The Many Implications To Be Found IN The Setup of The World At-Large–To The Contrary:
NO Direct Correlations Exist Between Shoe Size & Maturity.
AND 5. THE TIME HAS COME
For All “Lost Boyz” & Gurlz–2–Grow UP…
Cuz GenNEXT Ain’t Gonna Be Jumpin’ ON BOARD Your Dead-End B.S. Trains– NO MO’
Jes’ givinya a Heads UP–Dude–So You… “won’t look foolish to the people [reading] this argument in 100 years.”
-Mary
P.S.
James–I Know that You really-Really WANT A Chemistry-ONLY-Way for the random RNA nucleotide polymers to… “grow up” and become The Codes that they were always “meant to be”…
As a child I dreamed that I would some day sprout butterfly wings and be able to fly…
Eventually… I had to let go of the “literal” idea of My dreams and recognize the many other… analogous and Real Ways & Means by which This “Dream” Had– Occurred !!
U2–Bud.
P.P.S.
Faith in GOD doesn’t take Anything Away from:
“The Chemistry”…
And Opening Your Mind To…
The Whole Universe of Possibilities—
Instead of limiting Yourself to Those Atheist
supported & supporting “Schools of Thought”…
IS AMAZINGLY… LIBERATING–In The Truest Sense of The Word.