Religion, Spirituality, and an Insider’s View of Planet Perry
I grew up a “PK” – a Pastor’s Kid.
Insiders know that Pastor’s Kids are usually rowdy, rebellious, rambunctious. I was no exception.
Not sure what it is, but people pile a lot of expectations on PK’s. PK’s live in the public spotlight to some degree and there’s a lot of pressure to preserve dad’s reputation.
Again, I was no exception. In fact there were times when I got dad in hot water with his superiors. In one particular case I was the fall guy for the outcome of a political contest that had nothing to do with me whatsoever. But I digress.
Some may be tempted to say, “Oh well of course Perry’s a Christian, he inherited it from his parents” but those who know PK’s know that there’s no escaping a trial by fire. Sooner or later you must find out if faith makes sense for you. As I shall describe below, I’ve put faith on the anvil and pounded on it as hard as I know how.
My faith is an integral part of who I am and what I do in business. St. James said, “Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.” I take this very seriously. I bristle at those who recruit people to become information marketers based on the promise that it’s ‘easy’ or that it ‘has high profit margins’ or whatever else.
First and foremost, teaching people is a stewardship to be carried out with care. It is a very significant responsibility. Customers are, first and foremost, people who are made in God’s image. So they should respected and treated with care. We make mistakes here at our company, but we do try.
This page is a gateway to some of my articles and projects. On the left sidebar are links to articles in the religion section of perrymarshall.com. But there are other things I want to tell you about as well.
Putting Faith to the Test
When I was in my late 20′s I was reaching the end of a very long, desolate road as an Amway Pink Koolaid drinker. A torrent of negative information was circulating all over the Internet. I felt like I wasn’t getting straight answers about the nature of the tools business and the way the money was handled.
I decided to put up a website that invited “qualified people” (Direct Distributors and above) to answer these questions anonymously. I received all the replies personally and to make a long story short, Amway did not survive that scrutiny. Not even close. In time it became clear to me that there was only one legitimate side the the story and Amway was not really a legitimate business.
A few years later my brother’s faith hit the skids. This was very disturbing to me both because we’re very close and because he has a Master’s degree in Theology from one of the most rigorous Christian seminaries in the country. He was pressing me with deep questions but he didn’t seem interested in sticking around for the answers. Meanwhile he was dragging me with him.
I needed a punching bag.
So I did what I’d done before, with Amway – I went online. I put up a website, www.CoffeeHouseTheology.com and wrote an Autoresponder series. Since every single reply to every email went right back to me, I figured if there was anybody out there who could punch a hole in Christianity, I would eventually find them.
During the next several years I probably answered 5,000 to 10,000 emails covering seemingly every objection to Christianity that anyone could ever think of. And please understand, some of these people argued with fierce passion. I exchanged emails with a columnist from a large atheist website that eventually turned into a 100+ page WORD document. As the doc got passed back and forth, we used all sorts of colors and fonts just so we could tell who was talking.
There were times when I was seriously concerned that the skeptics would end up with the other hand. But in time, every time, I found that the skeptics had less evidence to support their {beliefs}{faith} than I had to support mine.
Having been through that now, I think Christian faith is philosophically, morally, intellectually and scientifically rock solid. Doesn’t mean I agree with everyone out there who is a Christian. And it doesn’t mean I haven’t adjusted my views on a whole number of things, based on the many conversations I’ve had.
What that means is, I think that it is perfectly reasonable to believe that the Bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit, that God spoke through prophets like Abraham, Moses, Elijah and Samuel and that Jesus Christ is God Incarnate. And that Jesus really did physically rise from the dead 2000 years ago.
Jesus stepped into the world and split time in half, BC and AD. He is the most loved, most hated, most controversial, most studied, most reviled person in human history.
Exactly what one should expect if God were to become man.
You will find numerous articles on the CoffeeHouse Theology site regarding these claims.
Another very significant project is www.CosmicFingerprints.com. This was also inspired by my brother, in a somewhat different way. It was born in an argument we had one day about evolution while we were riding around in a Chinese bus.
I have never had any particular problem with the idea of evolution. And many Christians, especially Catholics, have no problem with it either. But my brother almost succeeded in convincing me that evolution was driven by randomness. And that is a much more profound possibility.
He claimed that all you needed was natural selection to clean everything up and you could explain everything we see in the living world by random accident alone. No need for God.
His arguments were quite convincing. This was very, very disturbing to me. Wow, could we all be here purely as a result of random chance? What if this could be true?
As I researched this question, I found that most of the books and articles were just terrible. They did not have the elegance and simplicity that I had come to expect from 20 years of engineering experience.
I found the answer I was looking for in Information Theory. The result is a now-famous talk called “If You Can Read This, I Can Prove God Exists” and I am dead serious about that title. To the extent science can prove anything, the existence of the genetic code is proof that living things are designed. This is also available on video.
A few months after I published it, a debate erupted on the world’s largest Atheist website, Infidels, and as of this writing, this talk may be the longest-contested single lecture or article on the subject of the Origin of Life on the entire Internet. It’s the longest running, most viewed thread on Infidels and no one has punched a hole in my argument so far. I don’t think they ever will; I think that it is fundamentally correct.
You can read a summary of that debate, the major objections and my answers, and see all the relevant links here.
You will find many articles on the Cosmic Fingerprints Blog as well as a very active discussion with people from all over the world. You’ll find a testable hypothesis for intelligent design as well as support for evolution being a highly mathematical, engineered process. (Not unlike the evolution, of, say, your own Google ads.) You’ll find online debates as well as recordings of my lectures at Lucent Technologies, with 120 communication engineers in the room.
Evolution is not in any sense driven by random accident. It’s driven by intelligence.
Some other articles you may find interesting:
- Ralph Zuranski’s “In Search of Heroes” Interview with me
- 10 Tough Questions about Christianity, and Answers
- My own personal story of miraculous healings in India and others all over the world, and a summary of my own research into documented miracles elsewhere in Christianity
- The stirring story of visiting AIDS orphans in Nairobi, Kenya
There are three final thoughts I would like to leave you with:
I would like you to consider that the wonders and comforts of the modern world were made possible by three things:
- The idea that wealth is created by knowledge and wisdom, not merely fought over and divided up by thieves. That there is an unlimited supply, i.e. alchemy. As Paul Zane Pilzer explains, this was originally a religious idea and I think this is the very foundation of business.
- The idea that all men are created equal, which originated with St. Paul 2000 years ago. It led to the eradication of slavery and the advent of citizen-driven government. More on this here.
- The idea that the entire cosmos is orderly and measurable, which originated with Solomon 3000 years ago. This eventually led to the rise of modern science. More on this here.
Enjoy your journey through my world of faith, science, reason, business and history.
Perry Marshall
Hello Perry,
My name is Nick and I am from Hawaii but now living in Italy. How are you Sir?
I was wondering if you think God is a Trinity? Also, do you think it is necessary to believe in a Trinity God for salvation?
With deep respect,
Nick Batchelor
nickhawaii@gmail.com
Nick,
I absolutely believe in the Trinity.
I do not believe it’s necessary to espouse some specific theological formulation in order to be saved by God. It is necessary to acknowledge Jesus as Lord. I think the Bible teaches the concept of the trinity but the word “trinity” is not found in the Bible. Consider 1 John 3:23:
And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.
Consider 1 John 2:22:
Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
Acts 16:31: “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved.”
Perry, even though I don’t believe in Jesus the way you do, I do believe in the ‘concept’ of Jesus and what we can read about him in the Bible from an historical point of view as a person who went against the common believes and that what the priests told people to do. To some degree Perry, I find that what you do and the things you write can be regarded in the same way. You have the courage to speak the things many of us only think about. You go against what the big marketing companies tell us and you show us the ‘real’ world of marketing. I listened to the CEO of DDB recently and he talked about what the next new thing in marketing will be. And you know what? What he said was the same the same thing you have been telling us for years… You show us the way, Perry!
I already knew you are a Christian just from the way you write. I am excited to see your article and all that you are sharing. My website is small potatoes to you, but I do enjoy some of your emails. Everything you put your hands on prospers
I kind of knew you were a Christian too from your writings. Thanks for your leadership, and home scrool dittos to you. I hope to see you in Hawaii sometime, maybe next year, thanks again, brian sears
What do you think about other religions/God(s)?
See http://www.coffeehousetheology.com/no-single-truth/
Is this same Perry Marshall?
http://www.unbiasedopportunityreviews.com/Google_Adwords.html
Yes, but the article you refer to is quite inaccurate (libelous actually) and out of date. It was written by someone attempting to sell a competing program. Our 2010 manuals are state of the art.
Hi Perry,
Whenever a looked at film showing the New York skyline , the film is dated by the presence or absence of the World Trade Center .
Two major events happened during the first century, the Roman fire and the Roman destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. None of these major events are mentioned in the New Testament. Doesn’t this date John’s Gospel and Relevation at an earlier date , before 63 A D.
God bless.
Regards
Johan
Great point. The destruction of Jerusalem and the temple are hinted at in the New Testament but never explicitly described. So yes I think this does suggest a much earlier date for the gospels than is usually accepted – and for Acts. Anne Rice makes this argument at http://www.coffeehousetheology.com/anne-rice-atheist-christ/
Great article. I appreciate you using your intellect to further the cause of Jesus Christ and Christianity.
When has truth ever demanded an audience?
Meaning we should preach and teach regardless if anyone takes us seriously or not? If people listen that great, that’s what we do it for, but if they ignore us or hate us then we must continue to speak in the hope that someone will listen.
Hello,
I was reading and listening to some of the stuff on your http://www.cosmicfingerprints.com site.
It’s a joy to see a believer that is involved in science and is not afraid to trumpet their belief.
Many believers hide behind the supposed impregnable truths of atheism in order to foist their irrational commitments on the world. I do not.
I accept the first two premises of your argument:
(1) The sequence of base pairs in DNA is a code.
(2) All codes that we know the origin of come from a mind.
I don’t think the conclusion ( 3) Therefore DNA was designed by a mind.) follows, but that’s ok. It could follow in the sense that it might be a starting point for a theory of how DNA came about, which it never was so far as I know.
The reason for that is that God simply can’t exist. It’s logically impossible for God to exist! Therefore even though on the basis of your argument it seems likely that a mind designed DNA, God’s logical impossibility rules him out, and you already rightly rule out other minds, so unlike other codes we know the origins of DNA must be natural.
Thanks for your argument though. I must use it against atheists some time.
And God cannot logically exist…. why?
Your finger prints of God argument is not logically rock solid. (i.e. DNA is Code; All Code originates in a conscious mind; thus DNA was created by conscious mind)
While it feels less intuitive, the following statement would have the same level of logical justification as yours:
DNA is Code; Not all codes originates in a conscious mind; therefore DNA was not created by conscious mind.
To show why this version is more likely to be true than yours, one has to just find one example of a naturally produced code.
If you examine a shoreline, the patterns on it represent a coded message of past wave action and information about the susceptibility to corrosion of its constituent rocks.
If you examine the year rings in a tree, it is a coded message of not only the age of the tree, but also conditions it experienced, past rainfall, forest fires etc.
While the tree originated in DNA, the DNA had no effect on the year ring effect, so thus it would stand as a natural example of a coded message not caused directly by DNA. (I point his out in case your argument is Conscious Mind->DNA->Tree->Ring Patterns; Hence my pointing out there is no causality between DNA and Ring Patterns)
The surface of the moon, with its craters, represent a coded message of past meteoric action that the moon experienced.
The level of water in a damn, can be a coded message of the amount of past rainfall.
Thus many examples exist of naturalistic processes creating things that can be interpreted as coded messages, in the same sense that DNA could be interpreted as code message.
If you use the definition of Code, whereby it must have (1) Sender (2) Message/Code (3) Receiver…. strict testing of DNA argument will show it lacks a receiver in the same sense that a shoreline or tree trunk does.
DNA is a code in the sense that it describes what a living thing should look like, with no explicit intended receiver until people start to look at it. In the same sense the tree concentric rings is a code for past conditions, with no intended receiver until people chose to examine the code.
If there is truly a proof for God’s existence that can pass a peer reviewed scientific process, it would be the most important scientific discovery, and would surely result in a nobel price.
I’ve found others also posting the gist of a refutation to your argument, along with a list of refutations of many other famous attempts to prove the existence of (a) God: http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=50_reasons_to_believe_in_god#Reason_1:_DNA
A shoreline does not qualify as a formal communication system because no decoding exists until an observer shows up to see it. Same with tree rings. None of these things are proper communication systems. Here is my formal criteria for a communication system: http://www.cosmicfingerprints.com/blog/solve/
As you see on the above link, DNA is transcribed (encoded – sender ) into Messenger RNA (message/code) and translated (decoded – Ribosomes = receiver) into proteins.
All systems which meet the criteria I outline above, that we know the origin of, are designed. No one anywhere on the Internet has successfully countered my argument. If folks at Iron Chariots disagree, they can submit their evidence to the above link and I will respond.
Hi Perry.
Just wanted to say that although I don’t particularly like the Intelligent Design idea in it’s entirety, I do absolutely love your argument that DNA is a code, and codes don’t happen by accident. Fits nicely with Einstein’s “God doesn’t play dice with the universe” (okay- slightly out of context). But it does help confirm to me that that creationism and evolution are definitely not mutually exclusive.
Thank you for your work.
Regards,
Keith
Keith,
I think Einstein’s quote is completely appropriate for what we are talking about here. Absolutely, codes don’t happen by accident and it’s terribly unfortunate that creationism and evolution are seen as enemies. I hold Christians just as responsible for this as the atheists.
Perry,
“Christians” only added “evolution” to Chrisitan theology because of Darwinian pressure. Basically the same thing is happening today in Churches that rely on marketing to gain bodies to tithe, or that entertain bad theology in order to appease the masses, all with the cover of “we can’t win them to Christ if we can’t get their bodies or ears here”. That all sounds find and dandy, but the problem is those people who claim that, never actually provide the hard truths about Christianity, like sermons on Judgement, or hell…etc.
So with regard to evolution and God’s word, while I wouldn’t get into an argument with a non-believe over it (they have bigger obstacles, i.e., believe Jesus is who He said He was first) I would debate it with a believer because at the point you begin to call into question, or allagorize, symobolize…etc. the scriptures that are not meant to be allagorized (and you have studied enough to know there are some scriptures that are written as poetry and meant to be symobolic, or parrables Jesus used that were not literal) but at the point you diverge from the literal word God gave in the scriptures that were fully intended (by context) to be literal, at that point you give the enemey (Satan) the same foothold Eve gave him when she listened to his “if” statement which call into question God’s character and His very nature.
I would say you have made a serious mistake here Perry.
Having said that. I would say we are brothers and I fully expect to see you on the other side with Jesus
We both agree to keep the main thing, the main thing…Jesus is Lord of the Universe, who hold all things together, who died for our sins and rose again and lives today at the right hand of the Father.
Also, I couldn’t help but think that you must be called as a sort of Esther – “for such a time as this” as you are in a position of high viewability and you see that the time is very near for a total collapse of our economic system (the dollar) which will lead to serious upheval and will cause people to think seriously about what they believe.
http://budurl.com/endofamerica (i used a budurl only because the regular url is super long and I am NOT an affliate for this product, he does sell a newsletter, but the video is loaded with facts..
All things belong to God, Kevin. Both the ability for living things to adapt, and the art and science of marketing. They all belong to you and are to be used for good. If you don’t accept that then why be a marketer in the first place? No church that has the truth should hide it under a bushel. If shouting from the rooftops isn’t marketing I don’t know what is.
See http://www.cosmicfingerprints.com/blog/genesis1 for my views on Genesis. Better to discuss there than here.
Hey Perry,
I’ve just recently discovered this site, and have found your apologetics to be really convincing and biblical. this being said, I have a few questions. One of my close friends has been doubting the justness of God recently. He claims that He doesn’t see how God is giving everyone a fair chance of knowing Him. I see His point. Does a person raised as a Muslim in Saudi Arabia really have the same opportunity at a relationship with Christ as I, who was raised in a Christian home? It doesn’t seem fair. The conclusion we came to is that God is bigger than religion, and that a person, whether or not a “Christian” by definition is doing their best to serve God, God will surely grant them mercy. So I guess my second question would be, is this explanation accurate? Or is it just what I want to believe?
Thanks so much!
Andy
I think it is abundantly clear that not everyone gets equal chance to know God. I think some people get literally 10,000 times as much revelation as others.
This is obvious enough from observation, but the Bible clearly indicates this as well. In John 15, Jesus says, “If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin.” In Acts 17 Paul says, “Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by human design and skill. 30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.
And remember that Jesus also taught that people would be judged by their own standard of judgment. Matthew 7:2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. I talk about this more at http://www.coffeehousetheology.com/top10/#8 and essentially I think there are good Biblical reasons to back up what you said.
Greetings Andy and Perry,
I’m only reading this thread and have not read the Coffeehousetheology article yet, but was drawn to this thread.
I’m no scientist but I believe it was Newton who came up with the principle that for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.
So then, I believe that God reveals Himself to those who allow Him to reveal Himself. Like marketers, God doesn’t mess around with half-hearted, “lookie-loos”. This to me makes sense. Would you go out of your way to reveal yourself who was just ‘curious’ or wasn’t all that serious? Put yourself in God’s place. Why SHOULD He reveal Himself for those who wont believe anyway?
From my personal experience with Jesus, the more I’m interested, open-minded, and willing to be lead by Him, the more He reveals. And … talk is cheap. It’s gotten to the point where you have to put yourself in the line-of-fire for Him before He opens up. If you doubt all this, take a second look at what Perry is doing here.
Hope this helps. Happy trails to you guys in your spiritual conquest. God bless.
Andrew
Consider in an INFINITE universe( ominipotenet, omnicient, omnipresent GOD) othe the strong possibility of infinite parallel universes happening NOW..
That it is our perceptions themselves that are limited in the measurment of spacetime.
That Chaos/ order are simply labels for relative levels of understanding.
It all Simply IS.
That we create the perception order and Purpose…
by fitting our meausrements into closed systems…
JC
Just received your email about the spiritual side of business. Had to have a look. Can’t help but say – you’ve got some guts! It’s good to see someone stand up and be counted. I’ve actually been aware of this side of your life for a couple of years but I was really surprised to see you bring it up in a business email and put it on a business site. However, you’re an expert marketer so if anyone’s got the right to do so you have. (You’re not as crazy as Marlon Sanders yet, but you’re getting there). By the way, I’ve just mentioned you on my website – talk about synchronicity!
Hi Perry
I’ve always thought the basic problem is that the theory of creationism and the theory of evolution arguement is basically stupid. Evolution is not a theory, that’s Darwin, evolution is a process happening everyday. Creation is not a theory it’s a constant. Life is creation and it happens every second of every day. There really is no arguement, that was just invented to get people to waste time and be divided.
If people would just stop running around and looking for miracles and trying to be saved and simply took a deep breath and looked in the mirror. I mean really looked at the human behind the reflection in the mirror they would understand they are looking at a miracle and could find joy in their gift of existance.
Cheers
Kevin
That’s a great way of looking at it.
Perry,
Just linked off of today’s email invitation and want to say thanks for being up front about your Christian faith.
I share your story. PK. Had to find out for myself. Discovered biblical foundations of entrepeneurship. Believe that wealth is created, not divided up. Pushed towards ministry but drawn towards business.
Look forward to hearing more through the emails.
Blessings
r
Dear Perry,
Thanks for sharing your Christian faith. Some time ago I looked over your recommended reading list and knew in an instant that you are a strong believer. I appreciate your expanding that sharing in this medium and I pray that the light of the Gospel will continue to shine through your work.
Best Regards,
Tim
Brilliant!
Hi Perry,
I’m really happy to see this part of Planet Perry bloom. I love your marketing stuff, and am also somewhat of a Christian apologist. Good to find a place where the two mingle.
I’m not a theistic evolutionist, (nor am I a theistic evolutionist hunter!) but I agree with your earlier comment that one’s salvation depends on where they stand regarding one single issue: Jesus.
With that being said, I would like to ask you a question, for conversation’s sake…
Doesn’t evolution put death before sin? And if it put’s death before sin, doesn’t it undermine the gospel? Whether it be theistic in origins or not, I have always seen that as a problem.
Would love to hear your thoughts on this. Thanks Perry
I do not believe the Bible teaches that there was no death before the fall, based on a more careful reading of Romans 5. More at http://www.cosmicfingerprints.com/blog/genesis1/comment-page-1/#comment-5449
So you believe that death from sin is speaking only of spiritual separation from God, and not physical death…Which I agree, is what happened to Adam & Eve.
But what about 1st Corinthians 15:13-21…
Paul is making a case for a physical resurrection, by showing that Jesus raised physically from the dead, and in the whole talk, he is pointing out that physical death happens because our current bodies are corrupted, through sin, which brought about physical death, because of Adam’s sin.
Could you give me your prospective on this passage? If physical death isn’t a result of sin, what is the cause of physical death?
From 1 Cor 15 I think you can make a credible argument that man was immortal before the fall. God certainly could have made him that way. “And God breathed the breath of life into the man and he became a living being.” That’s not oxygen it’s talking about, it’s spirit.
But from this I don’t see how you can extend this to an argument that everything else on earth was immortal before the fall. Every fruit in the garden was subject to death, because it could be eaten. Death existed before the fall.
Ok, I’d agree that death in the plant kingdom happened, if life is defined as the spirit of God that was breathed into Adam. Which would make the plant being eaten not “death” in the way we use the word, but a transferal of the energy it has in it to Adam and Eve, as fuel. Plant’s therefore aren’t “alive” in the same way humans are, and “death” for them doesn’t involve a separation from the Spirit of God, like the death (both spiritual and physical) of man does.
The real issue I guess though is that Adam & Even were not participants in the evolutionary process, but were created as mature humans like we are. The changes that the planet undergoes over time vs. a traditional darwinian evolution, specifically in regards to man, is the only thing that would effect the gospel, because it would in some ways negate original sin, and it’s consequences.
Thanks for the reply
Brian,
This is a subtle but important point. A lot of Christians don’t care about some of these items one way or another, but to a non-Christian person who understands astronomy, the distance to the stars, age of the universe etc., the proposition that no death existed prior to man doesn’t make any sense. To some this might seem to be a trivial discussion but I think it’s important to any biologist, astronomer, biologist, physicist etc.
Preach it, brother! I appreciate you being willing to speak publicly in Jesus’s name. Christianity is arguably the most persecuted religion on the planet these days despite the fact that it is only now becoming that way in America.
Christ was persecuted; why should you and I expect the path to be easier? Christ did not fight his persecution – he accepted it with love and compassion, knowing that he is eternal in nature.
When one begins to see life as a part of something eternal the perspective shift is awe inspiring.
Christian’s need stop worrying about persecution and denial and instead focus on the example of the Savior. Because leaders by example are far more powerful than evangelists.
Perry – this is cool. Thanks for putting yourself out there. This is an inspiration.
Hi Perry,
Thanks for making me aware of this. I’m a Christian (and a pk, too) and just wanted to pass on the encouragement to keep up the good work (both business and spiritual).
Art
Have enjoyed your thoughts and teachings on Internet Marketing for some years now. Unfortunately I will be unsubscribing from your organization because of your recent mixing of religion with business. I understand it is within your right to speak as you please but I find your mindset concerning religion undermines your ability to logically think in other areas. Because of this I can no longer respect your reasoning overall.
Wish you all the best on your new platform and if you ever decide to have a separation of superstition from reason I will check back in.
Take care,
Tom
“You’re basically killing each other to see who’s got the better imaginary friend”
~Richard Jeni~
This sounds like something I’ve been looking for.
Hello perry ,
I was going through your new stuff, seem interesting by religion i am Hindu – DNA theory which you are working upon.
You will be able to find some thing more on this in yoga , tantra yoga as well.
Guruji Avdhoot Baba Shivanandji http://shivyog.com/
Babaji is already conducting experiments & are been recorded by doctors, He even keep a yearly conference in USA with Doctors as well. Also it does not matter for him if you are christian or hindu , he believes in humanity & unconditional love to every body.
Hope your meeting with him elobrate on the subject of DNA.
Here is another learned person who is also working on same theories he is based in USA http://www.pillaicenter.com/
I am forwarding the above links in good faith, it is worth exploring
This sounds like just what I’ve been looking for.
Cool, Perry… Well Done!
Looking forward to more… and appreciating all of who you are.
Thank You!
~Sunny
Hi Perry,
Looks like you really touched on something that inspires a lot of passion, both for and against. Thanks for being open about your beliefs.
If you get a chance check out this video by Lou Giglio about Laminin.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_e4zgJXPpI4
Stan
Hi Perry
I have to say that I have had your emails coming for some time now and I must say that I was pleasantly surprised to find you were a believer. Great stuff!
Anyway, my comment concerns the theory of evolution (TOE). Look I’m going to be blunt because there is no other way of saying it but…evolution is a crock of crap and when you look into its finer details you find that it is riddled with holes. In real life the fossil layers don’t exist in the nice neat pattern portrayed in the science books. If they did the earths crust would be over 95 miles deep.
Is it possible for the earth to be millions of years old and for the creation to have happened in 6 days? Yes it certainly is! When you look at the world it was designed and it had a designer, God did not use evolution to create everything we see now.
Neil #25,
I’m not sure what science books you’re reading but the reasons why the earth’s crust isn’t a uniform 95 miles deep is because of the forces associated with erosion, subduction zones, volcanism and plate tectonics (this is basic geology and geomorphology). It’s happening right now e.g. the Himalayas are growing by about an inch or two a year as one land mass pushes into another, oceans erode shorelines, and the wind and rain gradually erode mountain tops.
These natural forces do destroy fossil evidence, that is why there are not nice neat uniform layers of rocks or fossils across the globe.
The crust varies in depth from about 5-40 miles and also note that TOE is a THEORY and that’s why it has holes, all theories do, science’s role is to test them to destruction.
I would also like to add that a significant number of muslim arabs have converted to Christianity after receiving a personal visitation from Jesus. Yes, you heard that right.
The Book of Romans states that God looks at man’s individual knowledge and conscience, apart from the law, yet man is still found guilty.
The same God who sent His only Son to be tortured by sinners will do everything He can to make sure that all hear the truth.
Perry:
Yes, I want to receive your free mini-course, the “9 Great Lies of Sales & Marketing”.
Hey Perry,
Big fan of yours, and glad to learn about this side of your life.
I hope I can safely say that I’m neither a Christian or an Atheist, but I’m very curious as to some of the points you bring up here.
You say that you believe, among other things “scientifically, intellectually” in realities like Jesus rising from the dead.
I assume you said this because you feel your belief to be much greater than just in the “spiritual” truth of this occurring.
It seems you make quite a big commitment here.
Do you have any articles on your site where you lay down a scientific argument for the reality that a man called Jesus died and then became alive again?
Or if not, I’d be interested to know on what grounds you believe that, “scientifically” (meaning, it can’t be believed just because Jesus is God, or because the Bible said so) this seemingly scientifically impossible event took place?
Thanks a lot,
Andrew
Great question. I think the resurrection of Jesus is the only explanation that credibly accounts for the history that followed. Some articles on this:
http://www.coffeehousetheology.com/what-we-know-about-jesus-and-the-resurrection/
http://www.coffeehousetheology.com/tough-questions-real-answers/
http://www.coffeehousetheology.com/anne-rice-atheist-christ/
Hmm, I see.
So let’s say you know of a bunch of events that took place… call them “the history that followed” as you did…
You see them and you have to try and explain why they happened. You don’t quite know.
So you say “well, the only way they could have happened, is if XX was the case”
And then someone says “But do we have any evidence that XX happened?”
And you say “Yeah, the evidence is that those events took place.”
I’m not a logician, but I think that’s a form of circular reasoning.
I guess in the least, that reasoning could raise the idea that Jesus came back from the dead to the level of a “theory”. Actually the theory might be something like “the human body, after the heart fails, and the human dies, is capable of spontaneously restarting within days of the failure”. And if operating scientifically, that would be the time when you would have to begin to devise tests, to try and demonstrate some evidence that this theory could possibly be true.
You know what I mean? Like when you claim something to be a scientific reality, you’re committing yourself to so much more a rigorous process of justification.
Not as many religious folk I’ve come across do claim many of their beliefs to be scientific realities and that’s what’s most interested me about your post.
Interested in your thoughts.
Andrew
I do not believe that I have scientific evidence per se that Jesus rose from the dead. What I have is a very strong historical case for that happening.
As a Christian I understand God to be the author and creator of science and Jesus’ miracles are a validation of that.
This brings us into the subject of miracles. Can miracles be scientifically affirmed? Yes they can, see http://www.coffeehousetheology.com/miracles for a long list of my own experiences as well as publicly and/or medically documented miracles. Of particular interest is the September 2010 paper in Southern Medical Journal. You will find a link on this page.
I am not proposing a theory that says “the human body, after the heart fails, and the human dies, is capable of spontaneously restarting within days of the failure”. In fact I am stating the opposite – that this never, ever happens, so when it does, that is prima facie evidence of divine activity. This shows that supernatural activity goes above and beyond normal scientific experience. Again, see the above article.
I submit to you that you can’t examine this one thing (the resurrection) in isolation. You also need to consider that Jesus’ miracles and healings of many people – including Jesus raising people from the dead – is attested to by not only the gospel writers but by other historians. Furthermore, miracles still happen today, and they are documented. The links I provided expand on that.
P.S.: I take back my first statement. The Shroud of Turin may very well be literal scientific evidence for Jesus’ resurrection. I would encourage you to seriously investigate that topic.
Right, I understand you better now.
In fact, the point you bring up is interesting too.
You say that when something happens that never usually happens, that’s a prima facie case for divine activity…
We can’t explain it, it’s very rare, so it must be God.
But there’s nothing in “unexplainable-ness” or “extreme rarity” that necessarily points to something called “God”.
If I say…
No one could possibly rise from the dead… it’s never happened before, we have no way to explain it… so prima facie, it must be because of an Alien from Jupiter…
You might say that’s crazy.
There’s nothing in “unexplainable-ness” or extreme rarity that points to an Alien from Jupter being the cause either.
We’re making the same argument. And neither of them make sense.
Personally I think that when we encounter something unexplainable or very rare, it’s not a prima facie case for anything. It is what it is… “unexplainable” – at least until we have more information.
What do you think?
Andrew
Whether you’ll accept a vague answer or insist on a specific one all depends on whether you want to rise from the dead too.
Perry,
I remain unattached to any one religious organization, but I really enjoy hearing all voices of faith, even those with no faith.
I love your business stuff, and I’m looking forward to more of your take on “the spirituality of business.” And really, isn’t good business based on what we could call foundationally spiritual practices? You point one out above: Stewardship. Having been a “Perry fanboy” for a long time, I’ve read your cosmic fingerprints stuff and coffeehouse theology series – some of the best stuff out there. While I freely admit the science stuff is a bit over my head, I do love Francis Collins’ books, he’s really opened my eyes to the intertwining of religion and science, and how impossible it is to separate the two.
Finally I applaud you for stepping up to the plate as a man of faith and offering this opt-in to your wider list. You’ve risen even a few levels higher in my estimation, and heck, that’s hard to do….
You keep it up!
Keith
Nice to get to know another side of a man whose words I have read for several years, the man I proposed a corporate tai chi trade with years ago, and the person whose opinion I value as honest.
As a teacher of kung fu and tai chi (and music), I feel a responsibility to pass the knowledge on. However, I trust people to be themselves, which means some value honor; some value what’s in it for them; some value both.
Grateful daily.
There is a very compelling argument that we are the product of BOTH creation by a higher power and evolution.
It’s written by a guy called Tom Campbell, you can check out his theory of everything here:
http://www.my-big-toe.com/
It makes sense that we are created by something that is greater than us and therefore we can’t understand it. It also makes sense that evolution constantly pushes all things to evolve. At least this makes sense in my personal lens on the world.
Take it easy Perry.
Scott
Thank you Perry.
God exists regardless of those trying to maintain and expand their faith to the contrary.
There are those who claim to be purely scientific but are internally filthy and full of deception. They have built a cult of false science and want to perpetuate their dark myths to justify their contradiction of truth. Money, power and pride are all at stake.
You will see within the next few years you will see scientific evidences that will shock and rock the planet.
Keep up your great work Perry!
Greg
Mucho Thanks.
You ARE a rockstar in the best sense of the term.
Cheers.
I agree. And as apologists, it’s our goal to “Help the thinker believe, and help the believer think,” as Ravi Zacharias says.
I think the topic of death is a great conversational tool to use when sharing the gospel. We all know it’s inescapable, and many fear it. But Jesus can remove the fear of death. Check out Hebrews 2:15. Great verse.
Jesus is the main issue, and I’ve actually referred my evolution leaning friends to your cosmic fingerprints blog, because if I can remove that barrier long enough to share the truth of Jesus, it’s a battle for another time. lol
I bet we’d have a good time over coffee Perry.
We would. And I LOVE Ravi Zacharias.
Perry… I’ve received your marketing e-mails for some time, but never knew there was a man with such deep faith behind it. It was a blessing to read this page and a blessing to read your clearly well-studied responses to some of the questions presented to you. I’ll view the things you send me with significantly more weight from this point forward, now that I know the man behind them is directed and guided by our Lord Jesus. Thank you for sharing your heart and may God bless you always.
Perry, as always you have brought out some really great points. I wonder, eventually, if your kids will be PK’s
The focal point of the entire discussion hinges on authority. If God exists and did design this planet and its inhabitants, then there are absolute truths, right and wrong, and a being we’re answerable to.
As Rom. 1:22 states, many “suppress the truth in unrighteousness.” Why? If you don’t answer to anyone, then you can do what you want because you just randomly appeared on planet earth because of some sort of cosmically absurd mathematical equation that created something from the mud.
My family and I have been watching Kent Hovind’s (aka Dr. Dino) 17 hours creation series, and while his delivery is not great by the standards of academia, he asks questions and presents evidence that proves that the scientific community is suppressing evidence that would show the Bible to be accurate.
One example: Evolution claims man is getting bigger, better, and smarter. Skeletons have been found of human beings up to 14 feet tall, but museums won’t take them. Why?
Anyway, Perry, as always, you are a great stimulant to your readers’ thought processes and keep it up – damn the torpedoes…you’re going to get them. You can’t speak truth with out putting a large bulls-eye on your chest!
My kids already are PK’s. I’m an apostle in the marketplace. And very happy here, thank you very much. Thanks for your note.
Kent Hovind aye? you mean the guy that went to jail for tax fraud (ok, that’s a low blow and not too much to do with his insane ramblings, but just thought i’d throw it out there).
That guy is fantastically persuasive, and a great speaker, i’ll give him that – and i probably wouldn’t blame anyone for being suckered in by his ‘logic’, IF you didn’t know any better.
I’d suggest maybe looking up thunderf00t on youtube, and watch his ‘why people laugh at creationists’ series. He debunks a lot of the Kent Hovind stuff (amongst others) in a pretty reasonable scientific manner – it’s worthwhile if you’re interested in both sides, and it’s a good start, there are plenty of others that rip holes in Kent’s kooky theories.
Thanks for placing this information on the Internet. I read some of it and plan to read more in March 2011.
I have been studying intelligent design every month since about 2002, for about 9 years. And even written a few articles about it. Agreed that there are scientific, mathematical and logical ways to test for intelligent design in biological systems and in man-made objects. I have read most of the book The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins for some of the best arguments against Christianity and intelligent design. Dawkins is very good at knocking down most arguments for existence of God. But he fails to destroy the intelligent design arguments.
You should probably read his books that are focused on evolution then, such as ‘The Blind Watchmaker’. His other books go more in depth about evolution, whereas The God Delusion covers numerous different angles and only touches briefly on Intelligent Design. He does tend to go off on long tangents, but overall his books make for fascinating reading (and most don’t poke too much fun at religion)
Perry,
Thank you for the courage and right-mindedness to present and lead with your faith. my subtle but readily apparent signs of my Christian faith are on my person, on my business website, business cards and business vehicles. I have no problem mixing the two. Someone in my surroundings said one time, “I am not ashamed of my faith and I am NOT going to hide it!” I was especially encouraged to see your reference to Proverbs as a foundation. I was led to this same enlightenment a few years ago after reading a friend-recommended book by Steven K. Scott, “The Richest Man Who Ever Lived” (be sure to get the Waterbrook edition with an extra chapter entitled, ‘Partnering with the Ultimate Mentor’. Most people do not recognize Steven Scott but they would recognize some of the most successful products that he and his partners were the marketer genius for. Steven has written several books that are a mixture of his faith and business, addressing attimes specifically mixing the two. I started reading the “chapter of the day” (31 Chapters) from Proverbs, and encourage others to do the same.
I found that if I filter my decisions and behaviors through the proverbs I live a much more successful life in all areas.
Thanks Perry! I have had many newsletter authors come and go from my eMail box and it was running across your Coffeehouse Theology material a few years back that kept me connected to you. “…and we will be an encouragement to each other.” Romans 15:32
Perry
Well done but watch out for the flak!
I also am a PK (like that expression as I haven’t seen it before) but went well away from Christian living for many years
Many so-called Christians leave others with great disappointment because of their two-tier life style – I had a conversation with a fellow business person only today who said they almost despised Christians for being such hypocrites.
In the UK , which is where I am, there is a strong tradition of Christian businessmen being the salt and light (especially in the dark Victorian days)
but these days that is largely forgotten especially by us business people who profess a living faith in Jesus Christ.
I take great encouragement from your public stand and am passing it on to colleagues – both Christian and non-Christian. Thanks Andrew
P.S. Some PKs come through in the end! Thank You God!!!
I am surprised that Perry Marshall has decided to become a missionary of the Christian faith.I am wary of bible touting missionaries who do not understand the very core of the teachings of Jesus. If you want to promote Christianity, live the life of Francis of Assisi who had a profound grasp of true mission of Jesus. If Jesus were to return, he would lament what the Catholics, and the other denominations have done his word.
Religion is not a game of quoting verses from the bible; it is a profound experience of oneness with with the universe, that we are all the children of One God, not only the God of Israel.
A few questions, Harry? What exactly do you believe the Bible teaches about spreading the gospel? And how do you justify that view in your Bible. Or do you believe the scripture is THE authority?
If not, then you may want to read some of Perry and Bryan’s other stuff mentioned in the post above if you’re truly seeking truth. Most who say they are, aren’t, but that’s not my position to judge as I don’t know you personally.
As I said previously to Perry, damn the torpedoes! I’m proud to count Perry as my friend because he does live his faith and has encouraged me in my walk with Jesus…he’s doing EXACTLY what Jesus told him to do – witnessing of him.
I am looking forward to redceiving and studying your material.. Thank you.
Hi Perry,
I haven’t yet looked at the links you provided, but I’m looking forward to it. For me, there are three phenomena that I don’t think can be explained without recourse to God as Creator: 1) The existence of matter (how can nothing explode into something?) 2) The existence of life (it’s such a miracle), and 3) The existence of the human mind.
Thanks Perry for sharing this foundational part of your life with us. Our family just got back from 7 weeks in Israel and over there as we lived on the Sea of Galilee I couldn’t help but realize that Jesus was who He claimed to be and couldn’t have been a really great “illusionist” or a false prophet. “Well Done….” – Tim
Perry,
As a long time fan and subscriber I have to say this is the best cheese on the mousetrap so far, count me in!
Regards,
Vince Russo
Hi Perry,
I have been reading your work for some time. The spiritual side of your personality was not lost on me in the first book of yours I read and was glad to find in what I read a level headed person of faith who is neither hung up on petty theological truisms or afraid to take a marketplace approach to communication of faith and values which is both unapologetic and respectful…a very rare combination in today’s world of ideas. In my own work which is international film distribution and production, I am also immersed in a sea of ideas through the films proposed to our company, There are some I can get behind, some I cannot. I think it is critical to be able to live your faith in the daily grind, with both pride and respect for others, in equal measures. I am happy to see you go out of your way from time to time, to remind those who read you, of your own take on getting that balance right. Kudos.
Wow. This article hit me on an emotional level that I haven’t experienced in a long time.
A while ago I replied to a tweet you posted on Twitter about this topic. I still believe what I said back then: “This is infinitely more powerful than all the things you’ve taught about Google Adwords.”
Perry,
I’ve always had a great deal of respect for you professionally. You’ve taught me well in regards to Google Adwords and other internet business topics.
But now I have an even deeper respect for you on a personal and spiritual level after reading this first article about your faith journey. I’ve been a Christian for the last 20 years and my understanding of how it all works has grown. But as my questions are answered, it only seems to give birth to even more questions! Good thing God designed our faith to be a living, breathing part of us that will never be complete until we meet Him face to face.
I’m also very gratified that as a businessman, you are sharing this part of your life and how it impacts your business. I feel that my desire to be a successful entrepreneur is really a gift from God. I can’t explain it otherwise. I look forward to reading more about how you’ve developed your business in light of your faith.
all the best to you,
Eunice Coughlin
Love it..done with such class as well – not too salty, just enough salt – Mat 5:13
This is like the moment God revealed to Elijah that there was still 7000 believers in Israel… am one of the 7,000. I’m encouraged by the different responses and I comend you for your courage and boldness as the spirit of our God is the spirit of boldness – Prov 28:1.
Like Dave Kinsella (above) and the Apostle Paul said in different ways..When has truth ever demanded an audience? 1Cor 4:9 It seems to me that God has put us who bear his message on stage in a theater in which no one wants to buy a ticket….look forward, in tip-toe anticipation to upcoming posts.
Information is the Holy Ghost, the Ruach Hashem, the all pervading force which underlies all things. The knowledge of the Universe is within us. A drop in the ocean, the ocean in a drop.
Thank you for your courage Perry. Pierre Teilhard de Chardin is smiling
Seth
Aloha Perry, I am from Hawaii..PTL. I am one that Loves Jesus and very spiritual and appreciate your articles of Faith. I have recently have entered into the networking and finding breaking the code ( big bucks for the Kingdom which I am still pressing in towards Deut 8:18) very rewarding spritually as my person becomes a better person in my journey. I find many walls, negative thinkers, spirit of lack would be the best way to put it for me… pervasive thus far. Can you give me some advice on how you break through to these closed minded ones. I realize I sort out and by pass these but Its the Lost ones that Jesus came for…I would really like some hints on how to reach them and help them be successful. Jesus did say that there would always be poor on the earth… and I think it was Judas that wanted to spend the perfume money elsewhere (another statement of lack even 2000 yrs ago.) Much Blessings, Aloha Glory
Don’t waste your time on close-minded people. The only thing they’re good for is target practice.
So Perry,
When will we have a forum *hint* *hint*, to discuss our spirituality & business?
Would love to throw a few topics out for conversation but not sure a blog post is the best place.
One cool conversation would be about the similarities between direct response marketing, and evangelism. Eventually, you just gotta ask them to take action! lol
Brian,
A forum like that would be fun but it’s not going to make my “A” list this year.
Perry: Thanks for being a solider for Christ.
We are meant to live for so much more than merely business and worldly pleasures.
Keep strong!
“Because man likes his religion – but he hates God.”
No truer words have ever been written!
You lost me mate. Am I to understand that you don’t want to pursue the discussion further?
Not at all. If you ascribe it to aliens or something, that leads you no closer to the truth or any useful explanation. I am offering you somethng repeatable and reproducible: that through the power of Jesus you can experience miracles too. Read the miracles page for more.
Oh ok cool.
So I guess that’s where I get confused.
I don’t see where the difference is in ascribing it to an Alien, or to God.
Why does ascribing it to God bring you closer to the truth, where ascribing it to an Alien takes you further away? That sounds like you’ve already decided what “truth” is, before you’ve asked the question… doesn’t it?
In other words…
What is it in the nature of “unexplainable-ness” alone that points to God rather than an Alien or anything else? Why because something is very rare, or unexplainable, does that automatically make it a divine act?
Or do you believe it’s the “unexplainable-ness” plus something else about such an event which makes it clearly the work of a divinity?
If so, I’m interested in what that “something else” is.
Andrew
Andrew,
Ascribing something (origin of life, for example – or some kind of miracle) to an alien only pushes the question back further in time, it doesn’t answer the question.
There is always something unexplainable; Gödel proved that mathematically in 1931. I provide a rigorous answer to this question at http://www.perrymarshall.com/articles/religion/godels-incompleteness-theorem/
If you read this article very carefully – and probably the discussion in the comments as well – I think it will be more clear why a supernatural explanation is always eventually necessary.
Perry, I just spent a couple hours reviewing the arguments on the cosmic footprints site and you provide a very tight case. I’ve always dismissed intelligent design as the dogma of fundamentalists, but your presentation is logical and almost scientific. (Much better than “bread goes in, toast comes out – there is no explanation for that.”) Thanks for making me think.
David, thanks. I submit to you that the very idea that the universe is orderly and comprehensible was originally proposed by theologians. Science itself relies on metaphysical assumptions. For more see http://www.perrymarshall.com/godel
Perry,
I appreciate your courage to go public with your beliefs. I’ve had a long journey with this subject in my own life and currently teach classes on what I’ve learned. I agree with half of your viewpoint.
The Universe reeks of intelligence and purpose. Many scientists today agree that the materialist view of the Universe is flawed. Many have stated that conventional science is backwards – consciousness does NOT arise out of matter, the universe arises out of consciousness. For example, see Dr Robert Lanza’s 2009 book “Biocentrism”, quantum physicist Amit Goswami’s book “The Self-Aware Universe”, the writings of the late, great Princeton physicist John Wheeler on the universe requiring consciousness to exist, or any of the work of Dr Edgar Mitchell’s Institute of Noetic Sciences. There’s more – I have a whole bookshelf on this.
That being said, I have to emphatically disagree that the answer is the Judeo-Christian mythic god. Again, taking the question to science and scholars, we know the story of how the Bible, especially the New Testament was put together. I just finished teaching a class on it. We know that there are only 7 out of the 27 books actually written by the person whose name is on them – 7 of the 13 attributed to Paul. We know the approximate date of the gospels – Mark, 70, Matthew, 80, Luke, 90, John, 100. Other books of the NT are dated as late as 130. They don’t agree with each other, either. No rational mind can look at the FACTS and believe the myth about inspiration. It took almost 300 years for the Church to come up with the concept of the Trinity, for crying out loud.
Plus we know that there were at least 3 other different versions of Christianity competing for converts – Ebionites, Marcionites, and Gnostics – with completely different theologies. The one practiced by Jesus disciples was not the one that won out. That’s history, not opinion. Suggested reading – anything by Bart Ehrman, Prof of New Testament at U North Carolina – especially his book “Lost Christianities” – or anything by Episcopal Bishop and scholar John Shelby Spong.
I believe that we live in a friendly universe, a conscious universe, and that we are all connected. That’s a spiritual universe, backed by science. I run my business on that basis. Ancient myths were the best they could do 2,000 years ago. We can do better now.
Wes,
I have both Lanza’s and Goswami’s books and they’re excellent.
Author Anne Rice makes an excellent case for late dating of the gospels to be highly unlikely. The reasons are myriad but one is very simple – the NT only hints at the fall of Jerusalem. Foretells, actually. But the NT does not read like a document written after the utter decimation of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple. Which was the equivalent of an atom bomb. A book written about Hiroshima in 1955 would never NOT mention the atomic bomb. Rice’s article is reprinted on my blog at
http://www.coffeehousetheology.com/anne-rice-atheist-christ/
I do a comparison between references to a major past-tense event (Judas) vs. future tense event (Destruction of Jerusalem) at
http://www.coffeehousetheology.com/7-things-yo-momma-never-told-you-transcript-part-1/
The gospels were all written before 70 AD and as Anne Rice points out, the scholarship that says otherwise is shoddy. She references a number of very well researched books that set the record straight; my favorite among them is “Why Four Gospels.”
Bart Ehrman takes a scatter plot of historical data points, throws out the cluster of points in center; then based on the outliers at the edges, concludes that no conclusion can be reached. William Lane Craig makes a powerful case against Ehrman’s thesis in the famous debate they did together.
The gospels are historically quite accurate. They do not line up with each other perfectly, thus making it impossible that they were doctored to agree with each other. That is very clear. Thus we have four partially independent historical accounts all thoroughly attesting to the fact that Jesus Christ rose from the dead.
Yes there were alternative theologies. They died out.
You can call the miracles of Jesus ancient myths but I’ve experienced them personally. See http://www.coffeehousetheology.com/miracles for a detailed account as well as publicly documented miraculous events. Also note the study in Southern Medical Journal. I’m only 1 degree of separation away from the healers who healed blind and deaf in Mozambique.
I’m sorry but I strongly disagree with Ehrman and Spong’s 20th century revision of New Testament history. I refer you to the book “Faith of the Early Fathers” in which letters written in 80AD quote the gospels. The history of Jesus is real, the resurrection is real and He still performs miracles today, just as He said He would
Perry Marshall
Perry,
Thank you for your thoughtful reply. As a fellow engineer, I wouldn’t expect otherwise. I spent my 20′s and early 30′s as an active member of very conservative churches, so I understand your point of view.
That said, my only comment is that I’m not espousing “Ehrman’s history,” just quoting him as one source for the results of over 300 years of work by thousands of scholars. As a logical engineer, I prefer those sources as being more reliable than a fundamentalist Catholic vampire writer. I’ve used a number of books by a variety of scholars as my sources and the dates I quote are what that community have generally agreed on.
That said, I think that we agree on the fact that the Universe is not random, that purpose and intelligence exist, and that spirituality and business make good partners. We are co-creators with that intelligence. And that’s good!
Perry,
I’ve been reading your e-mails for quite a few years and always had the greatest respect for you as an advertiser, but now even much more so as a Believer who is willing to let his light shine. We may only know in eternity what the Lord has done with the seeds of the Gospel we have planted. Thank you for being willing to spread the good news to your many readers.
Tim
Indeed thought provoking..I have long ago realised that most religions are flawed because they are based on the “Man made Principal”
Much better to speak directly to GOD, as man was instructed to do by Jesus.
The world is too intricate to be created by random chance.
How can you walk outside and say there is no God?
People are so intricate, their bodies, their minds, their emotions, their personalities, etc. How can anyone possibly say that this is all some sort of random accident?
For Pete’s sake man, you have living breathing creatures that build computers, transplant hearts, and send Space Shuttles into space. And you mean to tell me that came from a blob of goo in a puddle of water that some how stayed constant over millions of years without getting wiped out by environmental conditions and predators?!!!
I have known your Christian position from my very first communications with you several years ago since “they will be known by their fruit” and your fruit was evident and not hidden. Thank you for being willing to share and may the Holy Spirit lead you in every way.
I was once told that I should separate business and religion by one of my patients—my answer was that I was sure that if they were separated that he not want to do business with me.
Be Bold—Be Strong
Dr ray
Thanks for sharing all this, Perry. Your thoughtful approach to sharing Christianity is so much needed in this crazy world of today.
As a long time Christian convert, I have become so saddened by the shallow Christianity expressed by those with political motives in past years. I don’t blame non-believers from rejecting Christianity if that’s all they see and hear.
Haven’t read your articles other than this first one, but having followed your marketing training for years I’ve learned to trust that your actions in business support your faith (and vice-versa).
Truth seekers are few and far between. Hope you continue this part of your career!
Nancy
I always find it so fascinating at how very earnest and sincere people get so caught up in semantics and the Name Game…just like the non-believers.
Big Picture, folks. When in doubt, go back to the message.
Just because one can’t slap a protractor on it doesn’t mean it’s not there. Just because a certain attempt at describing it doesn’t quite dovetail into other, more easily digested concepts doesn’t negate it either.
My son asked me how I knew God existed when we can’t see him or hear him, and I said “Do you know that I love you?”
“Yes, of course.”
“How do you know? You can’t see it or touch it or measure it or show it to anyone? How do you know it’s real?”
After a long pause he said “That’s dumb dad, it’s so easy that I can’t give you an answer…it’s too obvious to prove!”
So trying to prove/disprove God through our own human filters and experience is folly, and frankly, a waste of time. He rose, He didn’t rise…who cares? It shouldn’t affect The Message…Did God plan everything out to the Nth degree? Then how to explain evolution?
Maybe He made his job easier by creating self-perpetuating, self evolving systems that didn’t need his handholding and constant fluffing like a pillow.
Isn’t it MORE logical to assume that a Supreme Being would set things up so that adaptation can take place on a macro level AND a micro level (ever had a suntan?) without Him having to micro-manage?
I mean, if I can figure that out in my day to day business that’s it’s far better to set stuff up so I don’t need to to keep shoving it along, surely He’s got it down pat!
So there’re things we call Physical Laws – that so many people try to use as an arguement to explain Him away – why wouldn’t He take full advantage of them?
How on earth can physical laws and the laws of nature disprove God?!
It would be like my kids explaining how Perry’s teaching come to me on my computer…and then dismissing Perry in future years because it was discovered that he (small h) used the internet, and because there’s an internet, Perry can’t exist: Perry’s message is invalidated because it comes online? Pfhfht.
Remember, the filters and experience we may have trying to explain things here and now are not disimilar from the filters of people trying to explain it back then – cut them a little slack…
Just sayin’…
Perry, thanks for being comfortable in your Christianity. It is nice to see men stand up and say with ease and confidence that they are Christians and not just in the generic sense of the word. If it interests you, a series on “Spiritual Head of the Family” or “Christian Businessman-Not An Oxymoron” would be a great help to many wives out there.
Ok, but I wanted to clear up a mistunderstanding on this page first.
When I used the marketing example, #1. I didn’t mean for it to take away from my main point. #2. I didn’t mean markeing was the evil, what I meant was what they market and how they market it…I agree about shouting from the rooftops… In my opinion, what is needed today is not “marketing tricks”, or great sales letters, but for the truth to be told, plain and simple. Many churches have opted out of telling the plain and simple truth of the scriptures and started leaving out the “hard parts” for fear of losing members. “Oh, no, we don’t discuss hell here, it offends too many people”… “Oh no, we don’t discuss homosexuality here, it is much too offensive….”, etc… people today are dying for the truth.
Even we as marketers are to blame for some of it , in that many, dare I say most, marketers find plenty of ways to rationalize “minor” un-truths, or exaggerate claims…etc…
As far as evolution, I am a microbiologist and even before I became a believer in Jesus, I saw NO possible way for evolution to be true. If you study microbial genetics very deeply at all, you will find that in every single examle evolutionists give as a “proof” of eveolution, the genes ALREADY existed in the species. Now with genese being coded and recorded at a staggering pace (I helped invent the miniprep-24 machine that isolates bacterial plasmid dna from bacteria, and I worked on the Human Genome project in the early 90′s) it cab be proven… I suggest people watch the secular movie “Expelled” by Ben Stein… it is a fabulous expose on the absolute political tyranny regarding evolution…the facts are completely absent. What most peopel call “evolution” is simply natural selection (which is just an species switching to genes it already has to adapt to a situation).
Anyway, I’m done here… I love Jesus, you love Jesus… and that is the main issue.
Kevin,
I would like to propose to you that within the already existing genes (as you point out) organisms have a remarkable capacity to reorganize and make incredible adaptations.
I describe some of this here:
http://www.cosmicfingerprints.com/blog/evolution-untold-story/
This is sort of like the fact that you could take the vocabulary of a Stephen King novel and re-arrange the words to write a John Grisham novel and you wouldn’t need to invent any new words.
Add to that symbiogenesis (for example algae+fungus = lichen, a new species formed from 2 separate organisms) and we see that organisms have the ability to not only adapt “kaizen” style but also make quantum leaps. New species.
Thus I do not believe evolution is a hoax, I think it is a highly mathematical process; it can make large quantum leaps which is why the fossil record looks the way it does.
Thus the Darwinists have not been doing their jobs as scientists because they look at something we can learn a great deal from and sweep everything under a rug called “random mutation and natural selection.”
Hi Perry,
I have immeasurable respect for you and your business genius and your honest approach, but I must say you were sure hard on Napoleon Hill and “Think and Grow Rich.” That book was life-changing for me, and I still hold it out to be what has driven me to the discoveries I’ve made and the stronger spiritual presence in my life. That said, I’m now inclined to have a look at Proverbs of Solomon. Either way, it seems it’s all for the greater good and that’s the important and key message regardless of the messenger.
Grateful every day,
Peggy
Napoleon Hill truly has some great stuff. But it’s not as consistently excellent as Solomon.
I was pretty surprised to see your email about your spiritual side. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and insight.
I can’t hold a candle to anyone who knows the Bible and can reference verses that support their beliefs but I love hearing different points of view.
I was at one time, full of anguish and questions about God’s existence over the fact that some people want to force-feed their beliefs on others but don’t act very spiritual. Teachers were in my face, telling me I was a child of God, made in his image and likeness while at the same time that I was a sinner and destined to be punished if I didn’t live as I was told.
I was full of anger over the phoniness of the talk without the walk and eventually claimed there couldn’t be a God.
Then I “died” in a car wreck and went through an experience that was far different than anything I had ever been told to expect.(There are studies proving that at least some NDEs don’t happen in the brain.) It changed my life and the only thing I really care about is getting back to that place where I was after my soul left my body.
There is only one way to do that in my opinion and it isn’t going to happen through the craziness of fighting over religious beliefs.
It can happen when we get back to following the Golden Rule-by treating others the same way we want to be treated, with love and respect.
I think it is important to accept one another “as is” and learn how to feel the actual sensation of love for them. Being loved, accepted and appreciated is what encourages everyone to take the high road when the time is right and they are ready.
I get confused at times by the contradictions in different spiritual teachings and the interpretations given but I am never confused about the power we have to change situations with faith and Love.
That is what my death experience taught me-to be accepting of others and make work and play something that is done as much as possible as an act of love.
Occasionally someone tries to tell me it was the devil I saw, not God. But even if I am wrong in my beliefs since my NDE, how can I go wrong if I live by my beliefs about the power of Love? I think it’s good to move some of the conversations from our heads to our hearts.
Wow.
Double Wow!
Hey Teri Rose,
I really relate to what you have written here. Arguments come and go. Theories come and go. But the bottom line is that we are called to Love.
If God is Love, then the Way is clear. And no amount of chatter relieves us of that insight.
Dear Teri Rose,
I have had experiences such as yours, though thankfully I did not have to suffer a car accident to do so. If there is one thing that you can take from your experience is that there is something else “afterwards”. You have seen it. You liked it. It gave you surety in your life and from this a degree of happiness.
Given this, take your mantra of treating others as you expect to be treated and go a step further: no two people are the same nor do they wish for the same things. Try in your life to share the happiness you discovered, and find a way in which you can make the people you meet in the course of your life happier.
After all, happiness cannot be bought. It can only result from a calm soul that shares some of the foundations that yours does.
Gemma
There is a legitimate divide here, between the empiricism of the scientific method (predicated on the five human senses) and non-empirical abstract thought.
The Bible falls into the latter, though Jesus constantly refers to the legal requirement of two or more witnesses (empiricism) to validate his authenticity. However, he does not reduce that to reliance on human reason, because he claims that his father and the Spirit bear witness to who he claims to be.
To debate purely on the grounds of human logic is silly. There is much more to this universe, inexplicable even to the athiest. That is why they must argue for an open universe, but tied to their human notion of open.
Human logic is universal and abstract. You cannot prove that using the scientific method! One cannot “prove” the validity of universals full stop. The obvious question then, is which universals are valid. Therefore debate, even on legitimate historic and tangible issues, goes on and on. Unless one changes their worldview or presuppositions they will hold to their preconceived notions.
You cannot “prove” the Bible is true or that God exists on empirical grounds, though evidence is a useful thing for validating historic events. God reveals himself. And he testifies to the truth of the Bible; the visible church merely validates that through creeds.
Empricism has adopted a larger place than it should in this post reformation, post enlightenment age. (The scientific method is fantastic; we are wealthier than ever before.) It was needed, of course, but it has gone too far, re-enthroning human reason as the final authority. The coup de grace is humanism and the rise of the pagan state.
Jesus said that they will know that you are my disciples by your love for one another. In modern parlance that means that one would walk the talk.
Hi, Perry.
I knew that you were a fellow Christian, but was unaware that you had pursued this side with the same keen insight you apply to your marketing. This is great. God is sovereign and I am encouraged and edified. Thank you, brother. I look forward to exploring and using the apologetics you’ve developed to reach out to those God brings before me.
In His grip,
Dave Smith
Hi Perry,
Very interested in what you have to say
Perry you are an expert writer and love theory.
If you need 73 minutes to try to show me god exsists – sorry he just doesn’t. And that’s okay.
I need only 3 seconds to prove to you he doesn’t.
Why don’t you split test “does god exsist” the answer is no and heck no.
Love your work!!! You are gifted.
Perry, I’m guessing you expected this sort of thing. As my daddy used to say, “God is amused that you don’t believe in Him.”
Si Senora!
Yikes Perry!
I think you should stick with the marketing.
Trinity? Bible? Jesus? Solomon?
Your fundamentalist views show that a genius in one stream of development does not translate into others.
What about the great non-dual schools of Buddhism, Vedanta, Zen?
These tradition’s do not seccumb to dogma or belief and travel light years beyond any christian fairy-tales (stolen from pagan traditions, no less).
What is the nature of reality, right now, prior to thought, dogma or your programmed mind?
For that, jesus belongs with santa, the tooth fairy and the easter bunny ie the realm of ‘belief’.
Yes, What about the great non-dual schools?
Finding God within through meditation..
What is the nature of reality?
is it permanent or transient.
God is truth, Consciousness and Bliss, the only reality that does not change..
I wish Christians were more open-minded to other paths..
Thanks, Perry ,
I have been on your list for years and have enjoyed they way you do business you have introduced me to google adwords world and I am glad to also find out that you are a believer it is very rare to see an acclaimed respected Internet Marketer who is not ashame of the Gospel and is willing to openly share his faith with others ,God Bless you and your family .
Perry,
I cheer you for being honest about your beliefs. It is amazing how many preach being open minded only to be closed minded when it comes to Christ.
I cheer you about your sending your children to private school. Not only does it not expose your children to the gates of hell (read Martin Luther), it is the only way your children will be educated in America today.
As for sticking with marketing and not talking about your faith, by doing so you would not be a Christian. A Christian tells others about his Savior. However, it is up to the other person to determine whether they accept Christ’s free gift of salvation of believe they can save themselves.
BTW, all other religions teach works in order to save yourself. In other words, all religion teach that there is a massive gap between you and a close relationship with God. But all religions other than Christianity teach that I am so powerful that I can bridge that gap based on my works and my power.
Try coaching the person who just died that they can take another breath if you really want to and believe. Bridging the gap between God and you without Christ by your own efforts make about as much sense as this.
In closing, Perry, you may enjoy some of my brother’s writings and books – check out http://www.Leithart.com
Please leave the spiritual stuff out of your marketing efforts Perry, i very much appreciate your take on all things Adwords, but believing in god? come on Perry, you’re smarter than that!
Can you seriously worship someone who loves you soooo much that he’d see you burn in hell for eternity if you don’t accept him into your heart? because i can’t – even if he were real!
Perry, you have an awesome talent with words, and i owe a lot of my own Adwords success to your teachings, but i really would prefer it if you stuck to the subject of Adwords.
http://www.coffeehousetheology.com/top10/#8
Why did you click on the link in the email? I am pretty sure Perry’s email said to click the link if you want to hear the spiritual side. If you only want yo hear about Adwords you shouldn’t have clicked the link. I know a lot of intelligent people that believe in God…
Ronnie,
You’ll notice that most of the atheists who show up here are hit and run. They’re not interested in a rational discussion. Like the guy who said, “I don’t have time for a 73 minute talk where you’re going to prove God exists.”
To be fair, i clicked the link at the bottom of Perrys email to read about his ‘crazy’ story (i am interested in religion, and why people feel they need it) – i hadn’t realized that i would be automatically subscribed, so my mistake if i misread or skimmed the email too quickly. I actually only wanted to express my disappointment to Perry that i received the spiritual email in what i thought was supposed to be a list about marketing.
I have many intelligent friends that are people of faith as well – which is why i find it so fascinating that seemingly rational people have the ability to switch of that part of their brain when it comes to all-knowing, all-wise magic man in the sky.
And to Perry, i thought your response was a bit of a let down to be honest – we could go back and forth quoting bible passages forever and still not get anywhere, so i refrained from replying to spare us both the hassle. I’m not coming from the perspective of a person who doesn’t know about Jesus, i know about Jesus and yet i can’t accept him because he only dispenses love with a really big stick hidden behind his back, i find that abhorrent and won’t worship it. Besides, the best evidence we have is that the jesus myth was taken from a bunch of other religions that came before it – it’s kinda like a ‘best of’, the virgin birth, even the dates – all borrowed, and before you mention it, i’ll try and get ahold of the Anne Rice(?) book you mentioned to someone else. For you, i’d recommend Jesus Lied, by CJ Werleman, it’s funny in a very crude kind of way, so at least it’s entertaining.
Move mountains for me Perry
Rob,
You asked me a question. Then you dismissed my answer – not even appearing to have read it.
The Jesus I personally know does not dispense love with a stick hidden behind his back. Read the book of John and you will see that very clearly.
You raise all kinds of historical and philosophical questions here. I address all of them in considerable detail on my website http://www.coffeehousetheology.com. You can go to the article at the top of this page and click on a plethora of very carefully written, thought out and debated points.
if you’re not seeking then I really cannot help you. On the other hand if you engage, you will find my content to be thoughtful and respectful. If you are seeking, then read what I have offered and I will be happy to discuss it with you.
I have quite a few atheist friends, and you can tell it really ticks them off that someone would believe in God. I don’t get it. If someone wants to be an atheist, it’s fine with me. Just don’t get mad because I believe in God.
Hey Ronnie,
I’m not mad that you believe in God, to be honest i’m more dismayed if anything, that despite the incredibly low odds (given the scientific evidence or lack thereof), for there being a God, let alone Perry’s and your own different personal definitions of God, people still believe. THAT makes no sense to me. Sorry.
But, that said, you’re more than welcome to believe that, and i’m fine with that, but i start to get annoyed when it affects me – my main point to Perry was from a customers perspective, i was trying to give feedback on what i expect from Perry as a customer of his, and we’re all in business and i like to receive feedback from my customers, so that’s were i was coming from, but i probably steered a bit off track in the process. I’m clearly in the minority (or the bottom 20% lol), so i doubt he’ll change things, which is up to him, his business.
Perry, my original comment still stands (after a re-read just to make sure). I feel it would be futile to continue when i have to argue against YOUR personal version of Jesus – i didn’t realise Jesus 2.0 was out, must’ve missed that email
For the same reasons that scientists don’t bother trying to disprove different versions of God.
After reading a fair amount of your articles, i find some of them interesting, none of them convincing. I don’t know if you can accuse me of not seeking though, given the conclusion that i’ve come up with based on the evidence presented. I’ve sought, and come up with a completely different answer to you, that is all. There are certainly things that would change my mind, but so far no luck.
I’d certainly love to be a fly on the wall if you ever had a debate with Richard Dawkins, Stephen Hawking or Christopher Hitchens etc. though.
Rob,
A very prominent atheist speaker and blogger who’s one level below Dawkins and Hitchens – quite well known in the Darwin camp – was invited to debate me on a radio program last year and he declined.
He also refused to engage personally with me via email some months before that. I was polite but the most I could get out of him “You’re insane, and you’re ignorant. You can stop sending me your foolish twaddle.” He had written this to me specifically in response to my lecture on DNA and Information Theory in 2007 at Lucent Technologies / Bell Labs. You can listen to it online at http://www.cosmicfingerprints.com/blog/bell-labs/
You can listen to my radio debate with atheist Peter Hearty at http://www.cosmicfingerprints.com/blog/origin-of-life-the-english-way/
I propose to you that your version of Jesus is 2.0. Mine is 1.0. Again, sit down read the book of John in its entirety and decide for yourself what the truth is.
Perry
Thanks for the link Perry, i’ll certainly take a listen, though my first thought is that i am actually inclined to side with him when it comes to your take on religion/god/evolution on his ‘you’re insane’ comment(though with absolutely no malice intended – more as a friendly jibe, so no offence intended), having read through some of your material.
Whatever version my Jesus is, i would have to doubt that yours is V1.0 considering the thousands of different personal versions out there, the probabilities alone of you having the exact correct version and everyone else getting it wrong are very slim indeed, maybe 1.2.3898beta?
and when the book of John is read alongside the others, things just get fuzzier and more ridiculous. Besides, had you been born in a different country with a different predominant religion, the probabilities are great that you would be saying these types of things about THAT religion – no matter how much you’d like to think you would’ve found Jesus.
Sorry Perry, we’ll have to agree to disagree.
Were I a believer I would rejoice in finding a compatriot.
Were I an unbeliever I would revel in finding a conviction.
Dear Perry,
I think I am on all your lists, but just to make sure, please add my coordinates to the one pertaining to “Business as a Spiritual Journey”. I love to read you. Your words are an encouragement and they are godly.
Best regards,
Michel
Hi Perry,
Have you seen Ben Stine’s documentary on Intelligent Design and what is going on in higher education?
You don’t dare mention ID if you want to remain a noted scholar in this country!
Peter
Hi Perry,
I’ve been on your email list for at least a couple of years, and out of all the Internet Gurus, you, Ari Galper and Mark Joyner are the only ones I always read when I receive them.
I admire your approach, your messages always provide value over and above whatever you are promoting commercially.
Your integrity, authenticity and desire to be of service comes through load and clear. I think this is a reflection of your sincerity and commitment to your faith. So thank you
Personally, I do not consider myself a Christian. I was brought up as a Catholic, and had a strong desire to seek a spiritual path from an early age. This seeking led me through Pentecostalism, a new age program and finally about 20 years ago I became a student of A Course in Miracles (ACIM). ACIM has, by far, given my a solid foundation for my spiritual journey. It just makes sense to me on all levels. I have many friends who practice various other paths, from atheism, agnosticism, Christianity, Buddhism, New Age etc. I have one brother who is a religious education teacher at a local Catholic school and is currently doing a thesis for a Masters of Theology. I consider all paths valid, there is no particular path that is more valid than any other, but the direction is what is important. Direction being either towards the Truth – Inwards – or away from the Truth – Outwards.
One of the main premises of ACIM, which appears to be increasingly confirmed by Quantum Physics, is that this world, the phenomenological, physical universe, is a construction of consciousness. In Truth it doesn’t exist, it’s an illusion created by us – not God. It was created by us as an attack on God (The Fall, or the Big Bang). This is a very startling claim, yet it somehow just makes sense, and there seem to be many other theologies and philosophies that appear to agree with it.
The reason it makes sense to me is that if God is Love (and therefore loving), omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent. then how could he make a world that is so capricious, cruel and indifferent to his creations? If he knew that Adam and Eve would be tempted by the devil why would he allow it to happen in the first place? If his omniscience would know the outcome then why would he even bother with a test? Indeed, if God is omnipotent then why did he create the devil?
How I reconcile this is that God knows nothing of this world (it’s an illusion and God – being the Truth – knows nothing of illusions), although he is very much aware of his creations (us). He has one son, us – the collective sonship (in ACIM terms). However this son is asleep and to awaken him he has sent the Holy Spirit (the voice of God).
All of this is metaphorical, not literal, of course but it’s impossible to be any more definitive when attempting to communicate ideas beyond our conceptual framework with the concepts within the framework itself.
An example to illustrate my point is the recent Earthquake in Christchurch NZ. (I have relatives living in the area). This is traditionally regarded by Christianity as an “Act of God”. Meaning that is a natural phenomenon, the cause of which mankind had no control over.
If it is an Act of God then it must prove that God can be cruel and capricious. Or, from some perspectives, vengeful because of our “sinful” nature. How can God be vengeful when he admonishes us to be kind, merciful and forgiving? Why does he expect any better from us than he is himself?
From the ACIM perspective, if the world is an illusion then so was the earthquake. Yet while at one level it is illusory, the Holy Spirit can use it as a teaching device to help us awaken to the Truth.
I’m wondering how you reconcile this?
Bernard,
I don’t see how labeling our experience as an illusion solves anything. If your daughter gets killed in an earthquake, she’s just as dead, just as severed from your life whether you declare your loss to be real or an illusion.
Is this comment you posted on my blog real, or is it an illusion?
How do you know that God caused the earthquake? Did not Jesus teach that Lucifer is the god of this world?
Hi Perry,
That still doesn’t answer my question. If Lucifer is the God of this world, and this world is real, and God is omnipotent, omniscient then why would he create Lucifer and let him be the god of the world?
Humans elect- on a daily basis- to re-elect the dark side, with our choices. God only gives us the freedom to make that choice. Why did God do it that way? I don’t know but every day we choose the rules we will live by.
Isn’t it ironic that those who object the loudest to that are also the last who would ever accept an enforced moral order?
Hi Perry,
I guess from your response it appears that you hold the belief that the purpose of our existence is to pass a divine test somehow. To prove to God that we are worthy of his love/salvation. Not too dissimilar to the way I was brought up.
What I have come to realize for myself is that God’s love is unconditional. He doesn’t just love me when I’m good and then not love me when I’m bad. I think it was Shakespeare who wrote “There is nothing either good or bad, but only thinking makes it so.”
It’s interesting witnessing the behavior of people who have a need to prove their worthiness – In both religious and secular contexts. People who are driven by a strong need to prove their worthiness often have a rigid image or ideal they must live up to. They never really question it they just think that it’s their divine mission. Their attitude is often very sycophantic and condescending. Their motivation is primarily driven by the fear of what will happen if they don’t conform to a particular set of standards. EG eternal damnation or excommunication etc.
It has been said that the difference between a spiritual person and a religious person is that a religious person is ruled by the threat of going to hell, yet a spiritual person doesn’t fear hell – because he’s already been there.
To me – following God’s will is purely volitional. As it says in ACIM “There is no effort in following God’s Will”. It doesn’t require sacrifice, it’s not a demand, it’s not enforced, it’s a choice. God’s will is the only real path to the Truth and because it’s the path to truth it is a happy path. It’s truly liberating – because as it says in the bible – “You shall know the truth and the truth will set you free”. Anything that is enforced is not the path to Truth. How can it be when it’s enforced?
Bernard, I DO believe that God’s love is unconditional. I don’t believe in a performance based system of having a relationship with God. But that doesn’t mean our choices have no consequences.
Perry,
. But I never felt pressured or coerced into doing so, I was free to make a choice.
You said “Isn’t it ironic that those who object the loudest to that are also the last who would ever accept an enforced moral order?”
What “enforced moral order” are you referring to? If you are referring to a social moral order, a religious one? If so who sets the moral code and who does the enforcement. I’m not quite clear.
This was the point I was making. If you are choosing to follow God’s will then it’s by choice, not coercion or force of any kind.
I choose to because I know the benefits of doing so. I still keep choosing to do so every day. It has taken a while but I eventually got there
Pick any moral system, the Tau or the 10 Commandments, many people who assert God can’t exist because evil exists would not agree to abide by it. Even though it would obviously stop most social problems.
Perry,
There are plenty of social problems created by an “enforced moral order”. Especially in sectarian societies. An example is what is happening in Pakistan http://globalspin.blogs.time.com/2011/03/02/how-pakistans-blasphemy-laws-are-tearing-the-country-apart/
Understood. I’m saying, If everyone obeyed the 10 commandments would not the world be an awesome place to live?
But many people would not even tolerate having them posted on a sign. And the loudest objectors would be the ones who say that man’s inhumanity proves God doesn’t exist.
No I think it would pretty much suck. Especially if it involved “moral enforcement”. The 10 commadnments are like training wheels on a bike, they help you stay upright but they don’t give you any drive or direction. Eventually, after you have learnt to stay upright on your own you can dispense with them. All the commandments do is tell you what NOT to do, not what you can or could be doing.
And like everythng else, the human mind just focuses on what is being emphasized. If I told you NOT to think of a pink elephant what is the 1st thing that comes to mind? I bet it’s a pink elephant. It’s the same with a commandment. The commandment to Not Covet thy Neighbour’s Wife is a good example, the 1st thing you get curious about is your neighbour’s wife.
The other issue is who does the enforcement and how do they do it? In the example in Pakistan people are being executed for blasphemy. The “violators” are disobeying the 1st commandment: Taking the lord’s name in vain. TO enforce this moral code someone needs to decide that an offence has occurred. Who is without sin that they can cast the first stone? WHose judgement is so fair and just that they can 1) interpret the code faithfully 2) decide on a verdict 3) Decide on the best resolution?
The most constructive thing we can do to create a fair, just and humane society is to teach people to seek the truth for themselves. And the best way we can do that is by our own example. Once people feel compelled to seek the truth within they no longer need the training wheels, they become self motivated and self directed.
I think you are a good example of the Perry thorugh you Internet Marketing programme and the openness about your spirituality.
If EVERYONE obeyed the 10 commandments of their own free will and everyone ‘knew’ god existed AND we had a good definition of what god is, then it might work, but it’s doubtful. I suspect many people would use it to their advantage by spreading fear – ‘if you don’t worship in the right way…’ etc. etc. for their own means.
So – assuming you’re talking about the most widely accepted 10 commandments (there are 3 or 4 versions in the bible as you know).
I don’t think many people would have an issue with the actual moral parts of the list – shalt not kill, steal, bear false witness – though even those can be obscured (pro-life vs pro-choice, euthanasia etc). Adultery, well, i wouldn’t like to have that happen to me, but it is a choice so the consequences are self-inflicted. Coveting could be a bit of a grey area – personally i really do like those Ferrari’s when they pass by, but i wouldn’t harm anyone to get one, so i’d only see that as a moral issue if someone was harming someone else to get what they covet, and that probably comes under stealing/killing anyway. Most people love and honour their mother and father, but there can also be good reasons not to (abusive families), sometimes my parents are just plain wrong – i don’t love them any less for it though.
The rest of the commandments all deal with worshiping god, so they’re not moral issues and therefore in my opinion aren’t needed. I also suspect those would be the ones that would cause the most trouble, especially if they were enforced! Bernard’s example is a very good one when it comes to these issues.
Depending on how they were enforced, you may as well take away my capacity to think! What if my god is different to your’s? would that be allowed? If i wanted to worship Thor or Osiris would that be permissable?, or is that violating rule #2 (false idols), and what about the punishment? If we’re using biblical commandments to govern our lives, why not biblical punishments as well? (i wouldn’t wanna be caught picking up sticks on the sabbath!! that’s for sure). It would start to resemble something out of George Orwell’s 1984 where thought crime is severely punished.
so no, the world would most definitely NOT be awesome if everyone lived or were enforced to live by the 10 commandments, which might be at least part of the reason why people complain. Once we have undeniable proof (your version of undeniable is somewhat different to mine i suspect) of God, and we can define exactly what it is we’re worshiping, then yeah, there might be a case – but again i doubt it, the whole idea of worship is repugnant to me, sounds like a dictatorship if ever there was one, and if God is loving, he should be cool with my views, which means he won’t expect me to worship and therefore we could do away with the rules and just all get along
Personally, i would suggest that maybe the golden rule covers most of what we need? – “Do naught unto others which would cause you pain if done to you” from Hinduism dated around 300 B.C.E, well before Christianity.
Bernard and Rob,
Let’s take these in turn – the actual 10 commandments:
1: ‘You shall have no other gods before Me.’
People don’t worship anything that is not God
2: ‘You shall not make for yourself an idol’
You don’t make something and call it God
3: ‘You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.’
You don’t abuse words relating to God
4: ‘Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.’
Everyone gets one day completely off, one day a week
5: ‘Honor your father and your mother.’
Nobody insults their parents
6: ‘You shall not murder.’
Nobody gets killed by another human being
7: ‘You shall not commit adultery.’
Nobody’s spouse cheats on them
8: ‘You shall not steal.’
Nothing gets stolen. You leave your house unlocked without worry.
9: ‘You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.’
Everyone tells the truth
10: ‘You shall not covet’
No one wishes to take what is not rightfully theirs. People embrace contentment.
I for one would happily accept all the above items, even those that might seem excessive to some people, if that meant I got to live in a world where there’s no lies, no stealing and no murder. I think mankind could achieve GREAT things if we could always count on being told the truth and not getting screwed or harmed.
If however you reject even the notion that anyone has a right to issue these commands, let alone enforce them, then you inherit the exact world we live in now. Turn on CNN and enjoy the view.
I think what you guys are saying is that the Christian idea of heaven would be hell to you. I truly believe you are entitled to that opinion. Furthermore I believe that God will ALWAYS respect your wishes in this regard.
Please understand this: Given that you wish to have complete autonomy with regard to morality, then you can never even in theory blame God for the things you don’t like about the world. God has given you the freedom to choose and you have made your choice every single day. Welcome to the empire of man.
Hi Perry,
Your Utopian ideal is a nice idea in theory, and i like the idea of not getting screwed or harmed, but the reality is quite different, for many reasons.
We can’t even decide on one of the big ones ‘shalt not kill’ – debate rages on stem cell research, abortion and euthanasia and whether these constitute a violation of that very commandment. As for lying, sometimes in rare instances it can actually be the moral choice to lie – i’m sure you’ve heard examples, so i won’t bother with them here.
Even IF it were possible to create this utopia by using the ten commandments, you would be asking me to accept what i consider to be a lie (rightly or wrongly), which means you’re basically asking me not to think – which could lead to all sorts of problems for humanity. There are good people in this world and bad, hopefully through good education we can gradually turn it more towards the positive – i have ‘faith’ in humanity, we can do it without having to appeal to a higher power.
I don’t think anyone has said we’d like to take away you right to think that these commandments mean something to you, and that you’re happy to live your life by them – personally it’s when it seeps into the political system and into the school system that it annoys me. Creationism has no place in a science class, but it does maybe have a place in Sunday school for instance. Everybody should learn about the bible, it’s part of our history, but that’s where it should stay in my opinion.
How could i blame God for something if i don’t think he exists? i am happy to take responsibility for my own actions, a person can only blame something on god if they think he exists, such as the idiots that claim earthquakes are due to gods wrath over homosexual behaviour. I absolutely blame religion (i.e. man-made religion) for a lot of atrocities (don’t get me wrong, there’s some good stuff too), but i don’t for a minute think that it wasn’t man behind all those atrocities.
There are many people who feel they are too sophisticated to abide by something really simple like “don’t lie” or “don’t kill.” Many reserve the right to judge, on a situational basis, whether they feel they should lie or kill. Those people will pat me on the head and chide me for my naive utopian ideas.
Jesus did, after all, say that unless one became like a child he would never enter the kingdom of God.
I’m not voting for telling the simplistic 6 day creationism story in science class. Science is for testable hypotheses. But by that standard, there is also no origin of life theory that qualifies as science, so if we’re sticking to science, there is nothing that can legitimately be said about it.
Nature abhors a vacuum, doesn’t it?
Perry, Rob,
I am not opposed to the 10 commandments per se, I believe they can, and do, serve as a moral framework (one of many), individually and collectively as a society. Yet, like all rules & beliefs, they are open to interpretationm and therefore can be used for rationalizing many anti-social & dysfunctional behaviors. Take for example ‘You shall have no other gods before Me.’. This can become a justication for religious bigotry and intolerance. Yet if you carefully reflect on the commandment it can mean – as it does to me – don’t make a God of anything in this world – there’s nothing here of any real or lasting value, instead focus your mind on God (or Love/Peace/Truth/Joy), who is not of this world. In other words, don’t take this world so seriously, it doesn’t last – entropy takes care of that. Don’t make a God of your body, your posessions, your theories, your political ideaologies, your religions, your social standing. These “Gods” are not worthy of your worship or devotion.
What is important is to explore the meaning & values inherent in the commandments themselves. Don’t confuse form (the literal interpretation) with content, substance or purpose. When people truly understand and appreciate the meaning beyond the form there is no need for enforcement because they will want to abide of their own free will.
Yet, in having said that, there are obviously people whose behaviour demonstrates that they haven’t yet gained the understanding or appreciation of these values. In these situations – where there are victims involved – limits need to be imposed so they aren’t continuing to hurt themselves or others. So from that perspective I admit enforcement is necessary – at least temporarily.
But to live in a society where religious ideologies or theologies are enforced beyond the social practicalities of everyday life would be hell on earth.
One of the reasons I dropped out of both the Catholic and Pentecostal faiths was because most of the devotees had given up questioning their doctrines and dogmas. I found very little in common with them. There were too many subjects that were taboo, and very little authentically independant thought.
To think that i would have to share “heaven” full of these sanctimonious, smug, self-righteous, sycophantic people for eternity was more than I could bear – especially if I had to be one of them!
Hi Perry,
well, you asked for it, so i’ll have to call you naive! though i don’t think i’m all that sophisticated, so i’m not sure how that works. I’d like to think that the situation needs to dictate the actions, that’s what reasonable people would do. Sorry, i forget who said it, but their example is a decent one – If it’s world war 2 and you’re hiding Jews in your attic and Nazi’s come knocking at your door and ask if you’re hiding Jews – is it alright to lie?, knowing that not lying will get them killed – i like the fact that i’m free to be able to make that choice without worrying about possible consequences in the afterlife.
The origin of life is a testable hypothesis, what do you think all those experiments are when they try to re-create the conditions on earth 4.6 billion years ago? they’re testing their hypotheses – so far, with no result – to give up and say God did it is just lazy – wouldn’t you prefer that they ended up definitively proving God’s existence so that we don’t need to have these arguments? because those are the kinds of people most likely to do so. Anyway, i don’t suppose science class would teach much about it other than – we have some theories, we’re still testing those theories, but currently we don’t know.
If the Nazis didn’t think they were sophisticated enough to decide which people are OK to kill, would anybody have to decide whether to lie about hiding Jews?
I’m not sure what happened when I posted this response to your posting of the 10 commandments Perry but here it is again:
I am not opposed to the 10 commandments per se, I believe they can, and do, serve us as a moral framework (one of many) individually and collectively as a society. Yet, like all rules & beliefs, they are open to interpretationm and therefore can be used for rationalizing many anti-social & dysfunctional behaviors. Take for example ‘You shall have no other gods before Me.’. This becomes a justication for religious bigotry and intolerance. Yet if you carefully reflect on the commandment it can mean – as it does to me – don’t make a God of anything in this world – there’s nothing here of any real or lasting value, instead focus your mind on God (or Love/Peace/Truth/Joy), who is not of this world. In other words, don’t take this world so seriously, it doesn’t last – entropy takes care of that. Don’t make a God of your body, your posessions, your theories, your political ideaologies, your religions, your social standing. These “Gods” are not worthy of your worship or devotion.
What is important is to explore the meaning & values inherent in the commandments themselves. Don’t confuse form (the literal interpretation) with content, substance or purpose. When people truly understand and appreciate the meaning beyond the form there is no need for enforcement because they will want to abide of their own free will.
Yet, in having said that, there are obviously people whose behaviour demonstrates that they haven’t yet gained the understanding or appreciation of these values. In these situations – where there are victims involved – limits need to be imposed so they aren’t continuing to hurt themselves or others. So from that perspective I admit enforcement is necessary – at least temporarily.
But to live in a society where religious ideologies or theologies are enforced beyond the social practicalities of everyday life would be hell on earth.
One of the reasons I dropped out of both the Catholic and Pentecostal faiths was because most of the devotees had given up questioning their doctrines and dogmas. I found very little in common with them. There were too many subjects that were taboo, and very little authentically independant thought.
To think that “heaven” would be full of these sanctimonious, smug, self-righteous, sycophantic people was more than I could bear – especially if I had to be one of them!
On one hand you’re saying we don’t really need commandments; then you say we just need to interpret them more thoughtfully.
Jesus said the first 2 commandments are “Love God” and “Love your neighbor as yourself.” I don’t see how this leaves any room for religious bigotry. The problem occurs when you keep one and throw out the other 9.
Sorry about the duplicate post – I re-posted before looking properly
Perry, In your post you said “Please understand this: Given that you wish to have complete autonomy with regard to morality, then you can never even in theory blame God for the things you don’t like about the world. ”
I just want to set a couple of points straight: 1) I don’t seek autonomy with regard to morality, I want to question the validity of whatever moral codes are being adhered to. I make a distinction between morals and ethics. Morals generally refer to behavior, ethics have more to do with intent/purpose/motive/values. Behavior follows intent. Trying to change your behavior without changing your way of thinking is like standing in front of your shadow and commanding it to move. If you don’t want to behave in a certain way anymore it’s much more effective to change the intent & motivation that’s driving it. From this perspective morality is always relative – it can’t be absolute.
2) Blaming God – or chance, fate, cultural or familial conditioning, circumstances etc – in fact blame in any guise – is antithetical to responsibility. Accepting responsibility is actually very empowering. When I see things about the world I don’t like I don’t blame the thing I see, because it’s my choice about how I see it. I may not be able to change the thing itself but I can change the way I see it. I don’t have to like it, but I can decide to detach from any emotional charge I have about it. I can ask the Holy Spirit for his interpretation rather than defaulting to my ego’s interpretation.
One of my heroes in life is Victor Frankl who found a profound sense of inner peace whilst being in a Nazi concentration camp. He refused to let his outer conditions dictate his internal experience. If you haven’t already – read his book “Man’s search for Meaning”
Hey Perry,
ok, because you insist on having things in simplistic child-like terms(because that’s what Jesus would want), i’ll break the question down into it’s simplest form for you.
Is it OK to lie to save a life?
Even with this simplicity I feel that i might have to add a further condition given your last ‘answer’:
Is it OK to lie to save a life, regardless of the circumstances, if the lie has no other known repercussions?
Jesus taught following the intent of the law over the letter. He broke the Sabbath to heal. So yes I would lie to save a life.
I’ve never had to do it before.
Have you?
Of course you would, just like any other reasonable person would. The problems arise when people, for whatever reason(but usually power), start to enforce the letter of the law, no matter how good the original intentions were when the laws were put into place – the blasphemy laws and penalties for apostasy in the likes of Iran and Pakistan are extremely good examples of why we should not let your ideas happen in my opinion – i want to have the freedom to challenge yours and my own ideas about God. Jesus made the correct decision to heal through his capacity to reason, just as you would.
Cheers Perry – love yer (Adwords) work
Rob,
You invited me to publish my findings in scientific journals. Last year I assisted in the formulation and translation of the following peer reviewed paper which documents the mathematical structure of DNA and the checksum matrix that prevents random copying errors:
“Codon Populations in Single-stranded Whole Human Genome DNA Are Fractal and Fine-tuned by the Golden Ratio 1.618″
http://www.resurgence.be/pdf/ADN-perez.pdf
Great! on first glance i can tell it’s going to go a fair way above my head, so i would struggle to argue either way on that particular paper, but i’ll certainly try and get through it.
So all i can say is that i hope the findings gain a wider audience among the scientific community so that they can be argued more vigorously from both sides.
The commandments are like the scaffolding used on a building under construction. Scaffolding is not a permanent fixture, but is necessary to offer support until the building is fully constructed.
When a person’s consciousness is developed enough to accept full responsibility for his mind and his way of life he is no longer ruled by external laws because he is guided by the inner voice of truth in everything he thinks says & does.
Problems occur when the commandments are interpreted in a narrow formalized or literal sense and not taking into account the spirit or purpose.
“Because of this inner voice I follow, I’m too enlightened to follow written rules anymore” – Sounds like the perfect formula for all manner of abuse by cult leaders, dictators, etc.
To follow the inner voice of truth actually requires humility & discipline. Only the proud & arrogant ignore it thinking they know better. It means laying aside your preconceptions, assumptions, values, dogmas and ideologies. Tyrants, cult leaders etc believe they have a monopolistic hold on the truth, that their interpretations are valid and no one else’s are. They ignore feedback, or at least filter it so that it reinforces their position. A true student of truth recognizes that everyone has the capacity to listen to their own inner voice.
Thanks Perry for your comments. I’m a believer in Jesus Christ and all the He represents. I’m blessed to know that you are a Christian and not afraid to say it.
The business world needs more people like you.
Blessings,
Delores
Perry, Kudos to you for your courage to proclaim your faith in Christ. I appreciate those who have high regards for God and mankind. Your spiritual articles are thought provoking and lead us all to search out the matter to find the Real truth. I am working with my internet business and am pondering how to tie the entrepreneurial and the spiritual together. God is using you for His purpose and I would like to encourage you to follow His leading always!
Grace and Peace,
Paul Mattison
Perry,
It’s great to see you expose your spiritual side. In todays politically correct world so many people are afraid to speak about religion or politics. It may hurt their business. Well, you can have all the money and stuff in the world. But if you’re heart is empty you have nothing. How many rich unhappy people do you see in this world because they are doing it all for the wrong reasons.
I actually feel bad for people that are afraid to defend their faith. Anyone that has true success has a higher power behind them. And those that ‘seem’ to achieve success their own way, always seem to lose it all at some point.
Everyone that I’ve seen overcome anything almost always attributes it to God. They finally surrender and ask for help. Thanks again for sharing this all.
God bless,
Dana Houser
P.S. When you decided to do this, were you apprehensive at all? The greatest risks tend to deliver the greatest rewards.
Thanks Perry, It is refreshing to learn Christians can be ethical marketers. God has more to say about money in the Bible than He does salvation. He knew what would cause us the most trouble. Looking forward to your next posts.
Best regards,
Stewart
Love this Perry – I’ve put faith and trust on the anvil a few times and come out the other side flying (eventually) – I come from the woo woo side of town but simply know all this stuff comes from the same source – just reaches the destination from different highways.
I work with natural therapists and healers teaching them business skills and that money isn’t bad and much of what you have written confirms for me that success in business is success at a very high spiritual level.
Jesus was arguably the greatest healer this planet has seen but as I see my people reach down to pull out more and more of themselves as they grow and help many more people – I see them tap into their true self and purpose and its pure grace and Jesus energy they are tapping into.
Many are sadly locked into the loaves and fishes (heal everyone for free) concepts but I can’t imagine Jesus wouldn’t have tapped into the internet to spread the message further and at the best of times he sure knew how to pull a crowd – thanks so much for showing us a side of you that generally doesn’t get shown to the world and thanks for giving us permission to speak our truth even louder.
Mz M
First, my position is that it is not up for me to prove that God exist. Whoever has to prove He doesn’t. In this day of scientific enlightenment, such as Molecular biology, DNA, the Galactic habitable zone, the essentails of what it takes to exist on this planet, there is more than enough proof in those arguments themselves and where they lead for sufficient evidence.
The evidence that the Bible is Divine and not of human origin: Predictive prophecy, manuscript evidence, the very lives of the disciples themselves, archealogical evidence.
What is disconcerting about institutional church is that the topics that I discussed above should be preached from every pulpit. The church should be the arsenal of the ammunition of weapons for spiritual warfare for believers in the 21st century. America is in a spiritual battle in the cultural war for the hearts and minds of believers and not yet believers. It is time to be equipped!
Hi Bible Hawk,
Actually, you have the burden of proof, because you’re arguing for the affirmative. If i said ‘There are fairies at the bottom of my garden’ you would no doubt laugh at me and then say ‘prove it’ (if you were polite enough to entertain such a notion). If i said “There are fairies at the bottom of my garden, it’s up to you to prove that there aren’t” you would no doubt find it ludicrous that you should have to go through the motions of proving that they don’t, considering the likely-hood of there actually being fairies in my garden.
None of the things you have mentioned in any way shape or form have proven that god exists, in fact i would say they lean more towards the opposite, which is perhaps why you don’t find them in church sermons so much.
There are plenty of arguments and evidence against the divinity of the bible, but i’m sure you’ve probably heard a lot of them already. As for the scientific stuff you mentioned, well, yes we’re still learning a lot in those ares, but i don’t see any point in plugging that hole with god. Victor Strauss and Dawkins go into the galactic habitable zone you mentioned, so those might be worth seeking out if you’re interested. If you’re talking about Perry’s theory when you mention DNA, well, his theory is at it’s most basic level the same as all other ID/creationist proponents – the argument from complexity/god of the gaps, and it ultimately raises the bigger question if you take it to it’s fullest conclusion, that is, if it takes intelligence to create intelligence and god is fairly intelligent, then who/what created god?
Also, all the talk about ammunition, weapons, battles and warfare, doesn’t sound like a very reasonable stance, it sounds fairly confrontational, whereas it would be easy to convince Atheists and Agnostics – real, falsifiable, testable proof is all it would take.
Rob
What about other religions?
God is too big for just one religion.
Are you a Christian who believes that Christianity is the only way to know God?
http://www.coffeehousetheology.com/top10/comment-page-4/#8
Hi Perry,
Thanks for your enlightenment.
Warm regards,
Sasangka
Perry,
Hello, I am quite glad that you shared your being a Christian with me.
It was the one thing I wanted to know.
This fact will now allow me to take full advantage of your sterling reputation and impressive success as an online business leader.
Thank you
Barbara J.
Perry,
Of ALLL the marketers that I have purchased from in the last 5 years yours is only one that I still subscribe to. All others have proven to be mostly junk. Thank you for all your good advice and truthfulness. A rarity these days.
I also want to say how happy I am that you are not only a Christian but a professing Christian. You have done your homework and I am sure God is proud to have you as one of His. It is always so encouraging to see that there really are so many other God fearing Christians out there. I am in very good company. It’s just so sad when some of these non-believers pipe in and make statements about fairy-tales. My answer to them is, look at what YOU believe. Talk about fairy-tales.
Stay in His word and preach His word rain or shine.
2 Timothy 2:15
In Christ’s name, Amen!
Thankyou for your thoughts, Perry.
I haven’t read all the responses, yet. I might write more if I get time.
You are speaking to a person for whom belief in the Christ being is absolute. It is not hard, nor should it be – but what it must remain is a belief! There cannot be any proving of God, or just about any other Spiritual happening. Why? Because there are entire realms in Nature that do not comply to material rules. Take a look at medicine (I was going to say homeopathy but medicine also hits the right mark): take three patients, all with the “same” disease and give them exactly the same dose of drug. A week later, one has died, another still sick and the third well. How so? Because each human is different, unique and cannot be standardized in the way that modern science wishes to do.
Ten years ago there was a study by the renown periodical Nature where they studied homeopathy trying to prove it once and for all; they failed – and did themselves no favours with their attempts either.
In short, you will never prove the existence of God, for it is simply out of this world.
However, if you take the leap of faith and look into the workings of the worlds of the Spirit you will find marvels and wonders, and these you have shown in your writing. People can be healed by Grace, intervention and many other things. The trick is to know how to achieve it and bring it into daily human consciousness – without destroying its wonder and beauty. These things are hidden for good reason!!
Perry, I want to ask you something: when you remember something from your childhood, does it seem as if the feelings were much, much more vivid? I would not be surprised to hear if they did. I will say if they do, that you are not excercising your soul to its full potential. The soul is the seat of all feelings – for feeling is not part of the material world and is why even doctors cannot agree as to its true (mechanical) nature.
I am rabbiting on here, scattering ideas left and right and getting nowhere.
I will wrap this up by saying that I am a heretic. I know this for there is a little known group of heretics (me) who claim the Gospels were mis-interpreted. Old story. But listen: the last supper was held and all were eating and drinking merrily. The food water and wine were all flowing as they should. Jesus was not the kind of person to hold the bread and wine till after the meal! No, after the meal Jesus got out his preferred coffee perculator, made a pot of fine robusta and shared out the after-dinner coffee and chocolates.
Now, doesn’t that make sense of it all?! So now, you know my religion. So far I have few takers, even my children laugh with me!
One last thought: read the Gospels very carefully and you will see that there is a hidden detail. During the three years the Christ being was incarnate on Earth, the miracles he performed trailed away. The marriage at Cana He said “my cup overfloweth” – His being could not be contained in such a small form as a human’s. By the end, a woman touches his hem and is healed. He feels this, and speaks of her faith, but he did not do it of his own will. What am I saying? The whole of the three years is the story of the Christ being struggling to become ENTIRELY human, nothing more and nothing less. It is in this way that He would be able to pass through the gates of death.
Please remember that Hell is not a nice place, but think if all the demons heard that He was coming? Would they not be scared? I can assure you Lucifer would hold out that he most certainly wasn’t, yet quaking inside, tell the demons to relax yet urge them on never the less! In my own imagination, Hell got a make-over, spit and polish, new paint and plenty new coals to make it just that little bit hotter
It probably never looked so fine before or since!
What do you think? Gemma
Thank you for your words and wisdom. I look forward to hearing more from the spiritual department of planet Perry. I too would be honored to be counted amongst those that are recipients of your Business as a Spiritual Journey list. I know in the quiet of my heart that Jesus lives and I am thankful each day that though I may fall short of perfection, I have a God who sees my heart and my intention and loves me anyway.
Hey Perry,
I am also a “PK”, well a “MK” – Missionary Kid, spent 6 years in Brazil. Just wanted to say thanks, and that I am happy to be a member of the Perry Cult
You have really been a blessing…
Thanks!
Hi Perry,
Thanks for sharing your faith. It is much easier to be politically correct and secular. But it takes courage to share the truth to clients who deny its power. As you know are talents are given to us for one reason–His glory.Far too often those of us with scientific expertise remain silent —allowing the atheist to lead others astray—when facts agree with our faith. Thanks for still being Perry and remembering the source of your success–and mine.We owe Him everything–especially our voice. Jody and I are very proud of you.
Warm Regards,
Ron Allen MD
Ron, GREAT to hear from you. Blessings.
Thanks for opening up this topic for discussion. It is our purpose in life to be salt and light to the world, including our business life.
I feel such a range of emotions as I read these responses.
Sad, because we (you) are so FAR away.
Amusement, because we (you) are SO close.
Afraid, because YOU are at the controls.
Mostly I feel embarrassment
because I a human being,
and so are YOU
haha
Perry,
First I want to say from the very first emails I read of yours, I could feel your spiritual heart. You have become an inspiration to my own work and how to manifest it. You’ll note that I have a link to my website. I am the author of a book that makes the case that Edgar Cayce has reincarnated. Cayce believed it was the Christ speaking through him, and the book I’ve written ties some amazing threads together, linking aspects of the religious Jesus to the esoteric Jesus. You don’t have to a priori believe in reincarnation and there’s enough logic to the case to include the rational mind as well as the intuitive. I’d be honored to send you a copy.
Perry,
What about your brother…
You said he was careening (my word) off the path and dragging you with him… did he find his footing?
Cheers,
Jake
He became an agnostic and he is still actively seeking. I think the journey he’s been on has matured him in many ways.
Perry, I have a suggestion for you. Why don’t you suspend your internet marketing for a couple decades … and attempt to understand the *Information Paradox* through the life works of Stephen Hawking, Jacob Bekenstein and Leonard Susskind.
Molecules contain DNA information but where did molecules come from? Then the next question becomes .. where did the atom come from? The most recognized scientists and physicists in history can’t give us that answer. My takeaway from your ludicrous diatribe is that your ego is the size of the universe.
Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism, all religions are like whitepapers created for people to find answers to their deepest questions & nagging problems. Are the right? sometimes yes, sometimes no.
I used to be a born again Christian, until I discovered how limiting it can be.
Yes, the bible has great & wonderful advice but also really bad downright ugly advice. It might have been inspired by the holy spirit but it was written by man who is fallible.
The bible is a very honest book, and I quote from it a lot of the time but no one should be mislead into thinking that the Bible is the absolute truth and the word of God.
If you are the kind of person who thinks you need the bible, Jesus or the holy spirit for salvation or meaning in life, then you’ve found your answer. However the minute you have more questions than answers and the Christian advice you get gives you causes more harm than good, start looking elsewhere.
The word of God is happening in you and around you every day. Yes use the bible for guidance but open your eyes, look within not without.
Love & Peace
It’s weird for me to weigh in on a religious discussion, as I usually consider myself too far off the beaten track for anyone to relate. I’m a PK, as well, who never fit in because I always had a sense religion had taken on a perverse life of its own and was no longer about spiritual connection, but more about social control and manipulation. Unfortunately, that is most often the case. Why else would anyone spend a lot of time and energy trying to educate and indoctrinate people when the best advice that could be given is to go deep into their own souls and discover their own divine connection? The problem is that you really can’t charge a lot for that kind of advice and it isn’t much of a foundation for marketable materials. I’m not anti-commerce, I just resent the dishonesty inherent in most religious systems that fund their programs by pretending to inform and protect, while dispensing doctrine that is, at best, questionable.
Yes, like one of the other commenters said up above…I’m also part of the cult. I’ve been receiving your emails for a couple of years now, and for some unknown reason I always read them.
So that you know, up until about 7 years ago, I was agnostic…I wasn’t sure if God existed or not. My wife took me to church one Sunday…and now I’m a firm believer.
I’m not sure if God is Catholic, Baptist, Jewish, or Muslim…I think man decides that for himself. But, He is there…He does exist…and we should all praise Him!
Jhoecannon
Hi Perry
I like that there is a spiritual side to you> I saw you as an online guru. The spiritual side makes you immensely more human, to say the very least.
I trust the Holy Spirit to do His thing here and have this message reach you at a time when you are open to this suggestion, which is only this : Please do read ‘The Disappearance Of The Universe”.
Something tells me you ar egoing to love it.
Hi Asha,
i’m interested to know – does this make me less of a human than Perry for choosing not to believe in things we have no scientific proof for? i hope not!
Forgot to add that I would like to receive the 7 lies of Internet marketing (was that the title?).
I thoroughly enjoyed this and respect you for taking a stand for what I refer to and do. Marketplace Ministry.
I have been working for the last few years to put together a way to fund worthy ministries, missionaries, and worthy projects. I have it together. It will create a very large amount of funds. I am going to need someone with marketing expertise in the near future and will contact to pay to consult with you. I am also a PK.Thanks for your clear testimony. Curious: is there a reason it took so long for you to bring it forth in a bold way?
I give a spiritual talk at all my seminars, and this kind of material has always been on my website. Decided to step it up a bit.
Agree with [Ron Allen MD] up above. This alternate email list is the most worthwhile thing you could possibly ever do! Please add me to it!
Hi Perry,
In your extensive studies have you read the Book of Mormon and what do you think of it?
I ask because after Christ being our Saviour, Faith and Free Agency are so central to the religion.
A private email is fine…I’m guessing you’d rather not debate the merits of each religion.
Thanks,
Bill
Bill, I’ve come to know the voice of the Holy Spirit – through the writers of Psalms and Proverbs and the parables of Jesus, and hearing answers to my prayers. It’s a very familiar voice, and I’ve learned to recognize it. The voice I hear in the Book of Mormon is not the same.
Hi Perry,
Your response makes for some interesting extrapolations ; – )
1. One or both of us has been deceived
2. You are not ready to receive the truths in the Book of Mormon
*Please know that is not meant as an insult in any way; merely potential logical conclusions.
Like you, I consider myself quite familiar with the Holy Spirit. The still small voice has helped me pronounce blessings of healing and comfort, as well as ordain others to the Priesthood of God.
Most of the time I feel a constant communion with the Holy Spirit that guides my thoughts and deeds. The Spirit is a sweet and cherished companion whenever I am worthy to receive him.
Many pastors tell their flocks not to read the Book of Mormon. I suspect that is because most of the converts to our church state that reading it brought a spirit of testimony and truth into their hearts and minds.
It’s hard to keep a flock if the Spirit testifies that the Book of Mormon is true. Because; if it is true, if it is, as it states “Another Testament of Jesus Christ,” somebody’s got some splainin’ to do! (ref. Lucy & Ricky Ricardo ; – )
We both love the Lord! Gospel truths are readily available in many texts. The Holy Bible is undoubtedly the word of God. It seems incumbent on each of us to seek out the word of the Lord and more importantly, live according to the light and wisdom granted us in his mercy.
May God Bless You & Yours,
Bill
Bill,
We may need to agree to disagree on this one. I could have gone a whole different direction with my response, but I don’t care to get into an extended debate about Mormonism vs traditional Christianity – not here anyway. I imagine that you are at least somewhat familiar with the questions that get raised.
I wish God’s blessing upon you, and discernment for both of us on this matter.
Perry
Hi Perry,
That is a prudent decision and we are definitely in agreement.
I see great value in all religions, even with their widely contradictory teachings and practices.
Debating points of religion has never yielded much in my opinion. The Spirit must guide…not the oratory skills and passions of the well-intended combatants ; – )
In the end it is only the Spirit that convinces me of anything…not man or science or any earthly thing. We are all fallible and wanting. God is the author of all truth and thus, the only one we can truly trust on matters of eternal significance.
Peace my Brother,
Bill
Perry-
I see you are moving forward with a “spirit of power, love and soundmind” but I do have a question. Is it really the best use of your time to debate with athiests and spiritualists? Their souls are precious, and I know you’ve spent years in this type of ministry, but: Maybe you would be increadibly useful to God by focusing on practicing Christians who want to deepen, solidify or expand their walk with God?
I became increadibly exhausted after “casting my pearls” before those who sucked the life out of me. It occured to me that the bible talks about ‘iron sharpening iron’ and about our need to ‘grow up one another’, but discussion of witnessing takes on the imagery of throwing out seeds (much less intense effort). The exception of course would be how we tend to our little children.
Here’s my thesis: Growing up disciples in Christ is much more biblical (and efficient) than trying to convince argumentative non-Christians. It increases the workers for the fields that are already white with harvest.
You yourself are certainly not argumentative, but I’m sure you know that many Christians are watching how you handle this sharing of your faith. Most of us have not achieved the level of spiritual maturity that allows us to avoid strife and walk in love when we are confronted. Most of us would have already engaging in a spitting match by now.
You are one of the few modern models of the Christian businessman. Show us how to do this without becoming ‘weiry of doing good’ or being drawn into strife.
Sorry the post is so long….all said I’m glad you’ve made a profession of faith in this forum. I know you want to be polite and respond to every non-believer’s comment, but maybe that’s letting the foolish believe they are wise. Despite my uninformed opinion, you’ve got to do what God has put on your heart. Whatever that is, you ROCK!
Deb,
Great question.
I don’t have a big expectation of convincing the atheists I debate with a high percentage of the time.
Frankly at first I did it mostly just because I knew they would put MY beliefs on the anvil, and sooner or later what I believed would either break or hold together based on facts. I acquired some of my biggest insights after I decided to accept the possibility that the atheists might be 100% right. Because I then said, “OK so if they’re right, what all has to logically follow from that?”
I knew that there would have to be a whole new set of principles of engineering that biologists know, that electrical engineers are apparently ignorant about. Namely, if life emerged and evolved completely by accident and no designer of any kind was necessary, then there were principles of organization in nature that I was never taught in school. So then also there might be entirely new ways to write software etc.
What I found instead was that there are entire principles of engineering that EE’s know that the majority of biologists are ignorant of. I specialized in communication systems in college and few biologists understand information theory or its implications for biological evolution.
When I debated with the columnist from Infidels for 100 pages, he said uncle. And when the two of us were done I’m 90% sure he wasn’t an atheist anymore. He was an agnostic. And he stopped writing columns after that.
The people I think are most important here are the silent onlookers watching the debate go back and forth. There are MANY of those. Many. They want to see who’s still standing when the smoke clears.
If any Christian wants to learn how to debate an atheist – how to back any atheist into a corner in 5 to 30 minutes – all they have to do is study my cosmicfingerprints.com site and they’ll get all the ammo they’ll need. They need to see with their own two eyes that the atheist position has no rational explanation for….
-The emergence of the laws of physics
-The origin of the big bang
-The origin and nature of information
-The origin of life
-Why we should believe that good and evil objectively exist
It’s an open book test for all, and it’s public. Any who disagree with the above statements are welcome to step forward and everyone can witness the results.
Once you know that you know that the opposition has no facts to support their position, you cease to be ruffled by these conversations. Anxiety is replaced with confidence.
Hi Perry,
After having listened to the link of the radio show you pointed me to i feel i have a much better understanding of your Cosmic Footprint argument now, so thanks for that, it was quite interesting.
Just to be clear, i am Agnostic but lean as far as one can reasonably go towards Atheism – only because i can’t prove or dis-prove God, just like i can’t prove or disprove Bertrand Russell’s ‘Teapot in space’ or Unicorns, it’s extremely unlikely that those exist but i wouldn’t be able to prove to you that they do or don’t!
As for your argument, it is the same argument as every other creationist/ID proponent, but instead of using a subject most people can more easily grasp like an eye or an elbow (what good is just half an eye etc.) you use DNA, and to your credit, at least you’ve picked a good one that we haven’t been able to explain – yet.
But your argument is really just an argument from complexity – irreducible complexity to be exact, coupled with the ‘God of the gaps’ argument – ‘if man can’t explain it, then God did it’. You can go down the engineer/information system line as much as you like, but it still comes back to the same argument at the end of the day – we know that designers design codes, and DNA is a code, therefore DNA had an intelligent designer, sorry Perry, it sounds plausible on the surface, but i ain’t buying it, there is no reason to believe that we won’t have a natural explanation for DNA, probably a Darwinian one at that i imagine. Fair enough we don’t have one at this stage, but trying to piece together a 4.6 billion year old problem is probably fairly tricky, but we’d be in a world of trouble if we stopped trying after the first dozen experiments and said, ‘nope, can’t find a solution, must be God’.
And your argument is redundant anyway, because it just begs the bigger question, if indeed God did create DNA, because only intelligent beings can invent code (according to you), it stands to reason that something even more intelligent had to of created God and whatever his version of DNA is – in other words, Who or what created the creator?
As for the ‘no rational explanations for’:
I think theories for the emergence of the laws of physics and the origin of the big bang may be in Stephen Hawkings new book? i’ve yet to read it, so i can’t be sure.
The origin of life is always being worked on and we’ve made pretty good progress considering the short time it’s been worked on
Why good and evil objectively exist, i certainly can’t answer that, that sounds like a very philosophical question to me – maybe try Daniel Dennett or someone like.
You are correct in saying that we can’t CURRENTLY explain those things, but i think it’s lazy and somewhat foolish, not to mention completely unsatisfying, to fill those gaps in knowledge with God. But i’m also fairly certain that if God has left a mark somewhere it’ll be scientists that will find it, and if that happens, it looks like i’ll be in for a lot of “i told you so’s”
Cheers
Rob
No, this is not an argument from complexity.
It’s an argument regarding the origin of information which is a separate entity from matter and energy. Information always has a component of choice which only comes from conscious beings. The laws of physics do not make choices. They only dictate action and reaction.
All scientific facts which we have on hand infer that the genetic code was designed.
God is uncreated. God is outside of space and time. When Moses asked God who he should say had sent him, God identified Himself as “I AM.”
I think it’s interesting that you think something had to create God but you don’t appear to think anything had to create the universe. Yet we know that the universe – matter energy space and time – came into existence from a single point 13.7 billion years ago.
If you think that Stephen Hawking’s latest book explains where the laws of physics came from, then maybe you should read it and report to us what it said. I know what he said.
If you think that Daniel Dennett’s book provides a basis for establishing objective right and wrong, then maybe you should read that too.
The existence of right and wrong is not a merely philosophical question. It’s a practical question that affects every single human being. People who don’t believe right and wrong are real do things like kill 100 million people. Stalin, Lenin and Mao for example.
God has left a mark. We live in a profoundly orderly universe. The genetic code is more sophisticated than any man-made programming language. So sophisticated that it evolves instead of deteriorates. That’s a software programming miracle of the highest order.
Modern science itself was birthed from a belief that God created a universe that is orderly and understandable. A universe that does not require His constant tinkering in order to operate with precision and regularity.
No one has any excuse for not believing in God. And you know what? The finest of all arguments for the existence of God is: evolution itself. Why? Because you’ve never in your life seen anything evolve without intent and purpose.
If you disagree, name one exception.
Hi Perry,
Ok, so it’s an argument from design then? Intelligent beings design things, DNA looks designed, therefore a designer must have designed it? you are saying that God made information? I ask, because every way i look at your argument it sounds like something i’ve seen before.
I can’t see any reason why DNA can’t or won’t be explained by evolution, in fact there’s good evidence to suggest that RNA came before DNA, and we’ve been able to re-create self-replicating RNA. Plenty of work is being done in that field and it’s in it’s early stages, so i suspect we’ll gradually see more theories and answers in the years to come.
If you think you have a legitimate theory for the origin of DNA and information, maybe it should be taken through the normal scientific processes of peer review, i’m sure much smarter minds than my own would love to hear possible new ideas on the subject, and i’d love to hear how it goes.
When God was talking to Moses and committing genocide he was within time and space – so what’s it to be? inside or out?
Maybe i came across wrong, but i didn’t mean to imply that i thought God had to be created, it’s just what your argument logically concludes to. To be honest i have no idea what came before the big bang, but i don’t think it’s helpful to fill that ‘don’t know’ with God. I did watch a fascinating video by Lawrence Krauss on how it’s possible that the universe came from nothing, some of which was over my head, but very interesting nonetheless http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ImvlS8PLIo which of course leads back to what are the origins of physics, but nobody knows, and to say otherwise is just speculation or plain lying – God (whilst a remote possibility) doesn’t seem like a good answer, considering how many times man has tried to plug the hole of knowledge with god and been proven wrong before.
Fair call, i probably shouldn’t cite examples that i haven’t yet read, i was merely offering them as a point of view, knowing that those people sometimes talk about those issues (i’m looking forward to reading them).
Many of us don’t need God to know what is right or wrong, we literally would not have survived for Christianity to come about if it were the case that it wasn’t helpful to our very existence to mutually look after family and those close to us, you can see this at work in the animal kingdom. Evolution would not favour evil beyond a certain level. I suspect i’ve missed your point on that one, so sorry if i have.
You said the key word when talking about sophisticated genetic code – it EVOLVES, we have no reason to believe that it didn’t evolve as part of the natural evolutionary process that we know today, a process that has mountains of evidence in its favour.
The universe is indeed incredible, but our place in it is almost literally nothing, we’re just one tiny spec amongst billions of stars within billions of galaxies, maybe even within billions of universes (the multi-verse idea really does my head in!), i’m not sure how orderly or disorderly it is, it appears fairly orderly but appearances can be deceiving.
I have an excuse for not believing in God. No verifiable evidence. I would argue that evolution actually did a good job of putting a very large nail in God’s coffin – God wasn’t needed for evolution, or to create our earth and maybe to create our universe (the origin of life itself on our planet is still up in the air, but you can’t claim to know the answer just as much as i can’t).
If you think that evolution works with intent and purpose (i.e. as an overly ridiculous example, a mouse looks to the sky and thinks, i really should grow some wings over the next few million years) instead of adaptation, mutation, and natural selection, then your understanding of evolution is flawed. Bacteria is maybe a better example, Dawkins goes into it in his book ‘The Greatest Show On Earth’ (which i have read btw)
So my one exception would be everything!
Rob,
Evolution requires replication. Replication requires code. Code requires design. Therefore evolution requires design.
Nothing you have actual experience with evolves without being designed to evolve. Evolution is proof of design.
You can take what I said above to the bank. Based on a standard definition of “evolution” there is not a single known exception to any of the above statements anywhere in science.
None of the “RNA” in various alleged self-replicating RNA experiments contains any form of code whatsoever. To even call it RNA borders on deception. No field in the history of science has been more unsuccessful than origin of life research.
It is clear from what you have said that you have not spent much time reading my material on this topic. I suggest you apprise yourself of the information you need before going further.
How “small” we are in the universe only shows how truly wondrous it is.
Hi Perry,
I can see we’re not going to get very far on this line of reasoning, so i’ll try and wrap it up, i tried to argue your points one by one (within limits) but you gave me the broad brush.
You are quite clearly and simply incorrect on your understanding of evolution as we know it today, and i’ve read enough of your material to know that. Once you have a much better understanding of how evolution actually works, then i’d be happy to read more of your views, and in the meantime, again, i ask you to submit it for peer review in the scientific community just like every scientist does and see what response you get – brighter minds than mine may see something in your material that i’m so obviously missing.
Science loves to fail, it’s the nature of science and it’s how we learn, so origin of life must be a great field to be in, besides, you should love their work, they’ll be the ones that will just keep on testing until they find the evidence of gods fingerprint – or not. If scientists gave up after ten tries because they didn’t succeed and just put everything down to god, we’d still be living in the dark ages.
I agree that the universe is truly wondrous – still doesn’t mean that god made it.
I know you directed your question at Perry, but he’s probably too polite to go in depth on the problems with the book of Mormon. I’m not so polite (and though it probably sounds as though i do, i hold no malice towards you, only towards religion in general – i don’t doubt that you’re a great person, just like the majority of Christians/Muslims/Hindus/Buddists etc. but i DO doubt the greatness of holy scriptures)
Unbelievably the book of Mormon seems to take the utter absurdity of Christianity and makes it even MORE absurd. Jesus in America? that would be a very funny joke if so many people didn’t actually believe it!
It has been proven to be a fake (fairly easily) with Joseph Smith having attempted to write it in 17th century language – in the 19th century! it’s an obvious fake, and Joseph Smith (sorry to say) would appear to be a Snake Oil salesmen.
And let’s not forget that up until the 1970s or so, black people were not allowed to be elders in the Church, and the book of mormon clearly has racist passages:
“And the skins..were DARK,according to the MARK which was set upon their fathers..which WAS A CURSE upon them…”(Book of Mormon,Alma 3:6)
I’m sure you’ve since reconciled all those passages somehow – as all religions tend to do to try and win over new more enlightened followers, but the fact remains, it was a racist organization for many years.
Shall i continue? there’s plenty more…
Hi Rob,
I’ve heard those and many more. No need to continue. I can easily discuss all of the items you have mentioned, but I don’t believe my answers will satisfy you, and will likely only yield more unsatisfiable questions. I’m really not disposed to go down that road again anytime soon.
Make no mistake; Perry is the moderator here. He determines what is posted…including your reply.
You may want to continue your research at http://www.fairlds.org/ (not affiliated with the church.) They have plenty of unsatisfying answers for you there ; – )
Nearly all of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon) teachings are available at http://lds.org or http://mormon.org if you are interested. The Sunday School, Priesthood, and every manual we use are right there. It will either be fodder for additional criticism or may shed some light on things…that is up to you.
You may be surprised to learn that I consider myself a scientist. I seek out empirical evidence whenever and wherever possible. It matters to me; perhaps a great deal more than to most people I know.
In my quest to discover if there were a God or not, and consider the eternal things, I learned that there is a type of learning that is spiritual in nature. I learned that you must be open to this “spiritual learning” and must accept some things and take action based on faith. Yeah, that seems very contradictory for a guy claiming to be a scientist. ; – )
To me it is fascinating that God wants us to develop faith. It would seem if you have faith, you don’t need proof. If you have proof, you don’t need faith.
Perhaps the difference between the “spiritual men and boys” is the presence of faith?
Free agency rules! I love the fact that we are free to choose and I hope and pray that all will choose to exercise enough faith to pray and enough faith to listen. Then, as promised, a loving Heavenly Father will share his confirming spirit with them. That’s the game changer!
No malice on this end either amigo. I bid you peace.
Bill
Hi Bill,
Thanks for the response, and for the resources, i’m always keen to get a deeper perspective – that’s quite a lot of stuff to get through! And yes, whilst it does attempt to shed some further light on topics, what i’ve read so far of the FAIR stuff is still quite unsatisfying i’m afraid
for many reasons, which as you suggest, are probably not worth going into on this forum, but i must admit, i hadn’t heard of the men on the moon one before, true or otherwise, that was pretty funny. It was also funny that in defense of the problem of testing DNA evidence for the early American Indians, they poked fun at Christians for the inconvenience of DNA relating to evolution (an attack on young earth creationists no doubt) yet your teachings also mention Adam as the first man – so yeah, quite entertaining at least.
Yes, i am quite surprised that you consider yourself a scientist! and yes, contradictory springs to mind when you mention spiritual learning and action based on faith
. I dearly hope that the majority of our renowned scientists don’t follow your example haha i hope they continue to posit theories to their peers for critique and use reason and logic and what we know about the natural world to continue to come up with their conclusions, without resorting to a shrug of their shoulders and saying ‘don’t know, must be God’ – and i sincerely hope they don’t take fairy tales and magic at face value without real evidence – that could be disastrous for us all!
The FAQ section of mormon.org is a good quick resource for people like myself, so thanks – but reading through some of it, i can’t condone what the church states on a number of topics, it’s still divisive, even taking out the magic stuff.
But yes, it’s at least great that we’re able to discuss these things and choose for ourselves, and i actually applaud Perry for allowing comments, whereas a lot of religious sites are very much info only.
oh, and whilst you’re praying – please, please DON’T pray for me when you’re praying for everyone to listen, in fact i’ll help you – I deny the holy spirit – there, the ultimate sin, unforgivable apparently, depending on what religion you’re listening to at the time
Thanks Bill, and peace to you too.
Rob
Hi Rob,
We’ve never met but I’m quite certain we would enjoy discussing the things of the universe over some Jell-O ; – )
Sorry to disappoint you, but “denying the Holy Spirit” requires that you first have a “perfect knowledge” of him and God. You are very likely not qualified for actual “unpardonable” blaspheme as I understand it…nice try though ; – )
As for things you see as divisive regarding our doctrines…I don’t pretend to understand everything, but I made a decision long ago to let God speak for himself through his prophets as has always been his established pattern.
I make no excuses for God or revealed doctrines. I have great faith that the things I fail to understand are knowable and understandable in good time…in this life, or the next. I can be patient. Kinda like the “Big Bang Theory,” It is inconceivable to me that all matter throughout the universe managed to collect into a ~basketball sized glob of pure energy and then explode to create all we know. That is so far beyond my comprehension that I am at a loss to even start to get a sense of it. Really.
At some point you have to say; hmm, if there is a God and he has the qualities attributed to him (omnipotent, omniscient, etc.) maybe, just maybe, he knows some things we don’t ; – ) I mean, an all- powerful and all-knowing being is not how I would describe myself at this juncture ; – )
There really seem to be some “Universal Truths” whether we like them, or accept them, or not. Does it do us any good whatsoever to disagree with or not believe in gravity? I think not.
In the end, if there is a God; I’m pretty sure truth and right as he defines them will be superior to whatever limited notions we may have. It seems we stand to learn a lot from a loving Heavenly Father who wants to give us all that he has…including his light and knowledge. I think that is very exciting and I am willing to learn in spiritual and logical/empirical/experiential ways. And why not?
I think the song is called “What’s Forever For” and the really salient line is “If love never, lasts forever, tell me, what’s forever for?” I refuse to believe that we cease to exist beyond this little lifetime here on earth. It’s just too big a waste and far too hopeless. Everything means nothing if there is nothing beyond the grave as I see it.
So yeah, I asked God to help me know things beyond my mortal comprehension and he did. Now I live my life to live, love, learn and prepare for “graduation day.” I look forward to my own death and return home to our Heavenly Father and eternal family. Without this hope and spiritual awakening I truly see little, if any, point in anything.
Life is Good…and we are all Terminal ; – )
Bill
Hi Bill,
Yes, i always find it fascinating (if somewhat frustrating) to discuss these things. I have one really good Christian friend that will regularly put up with me telling him he’s full of nonsense, and he does his best to explain why he isn’t, but i suspect even he has his limits
How is it even possible to have ‘perfect knowledge’ of God? I doubt very much i even know myself perfectly! I would assume that God being omniscient would be the only one to have a perfect knowledge or himself (which by the way, creates it’s own problems, but that’s for another day) so what you’re saying is that it’s basically impossible for me to deny him? does that extend to all blasphemy? because i know a fair amount of Christians (including my friend) would say i’m going to hell just because i haven’t accepted Jesus, let alone blaspheme and deny him! If God really is that forgiving (the old testament god wouldn’t appear to be) then it wouldn’t be too much of a stretch to imagine we might be in for a few surprises when we get to heaven and meet up with some of the more lowly characters of human history (i’m hoping i wouldn’t fall anywhere near that category, but i’m just saying!)
If he speaks through prophets, well, there’s a LOT of confusion down here even amongst Christians themselves, he really needs to change tact and get a better system – but he should know that, he IS god.
You don’t really need to understand the big bang, that’s what we have scientists and physicists for – it may be inconceivable to you (it blows my mind as well) but the people working on it are some of the most intelligent people on the planet and to undermine their work by saying i can’t understand it, it must’ve been god, is a real shame – sure, they could be wrong, but they’re finding out more and more information all the time and putting together the pieces of the puzzle.
Omniscience and omnipotence brings about issues of its own (a LOT of issues) but one of my favourites to think about is – if god is omnipotent, could he create a rock so big that he couldn’t lift it?
I agree it would do us no good to disagree with gravity – but gravity is a proven, testible, demonstrable law that has stood the test of time. God isn’t, we have no evidence whatsoever for God (despite the wonders of the world and cosmos) – what you think and believe is of course up to you, but it’s probably best not to equate warm fuzzy feelings with hard scientific data.
If there is a god then yes, by definition he’d know a lot about all these things – it’d be great if he could share some of that knowledge so we could stop some disease and maybe start traveling to distant planets, i mean, he could’ve at least told us about germs last time he visited! but no, one or two people get healed and that’s ya lot, perhaps he hadn’t heard the ‘teach a man to fish’ proverb?
What you refuse to believe, and what IS, is quite possibly two different things – if the thought of life after death is comforting, then that’s fine, who am i to take that away with my silly logic, but i actually find it incredibly freeing to know that this is it, one chance, so i better make the most of it, It’s also incredibly humbling to know that we almost literally are nothing! Carl Sagans ‘pale blue dot’ gives it a little perspective (it’s on youtube)
To me, for you to look forward to death is a sad thing, i’m really sorry to hear that.
Cheers Bill
Rob
Hi Rob,
Well, you’ve said a mouthful again, but I’m going to only reply to a few things.
You seem very much like a good friend of mine who has all kinds of advice for God. God should do this thing or that, and if he knew everything he would.
Do you not see the arrogance in that? If God is an unlimited being do you think he would do anything according to Rob? ; – ) The short answer is: only if Rob’s will happened to match God’s will.
God knows the “Big Picture” while Rob’s view (and Bill’s) is far less than the “pale blue dot.” My teenagers often try to instruct me, but I do have a view far beyond their current levels of experience and wisdom. How many times greater is the wisdom and understanding of an omniscient being?
I appreciate your feeling sad for me because I “look forward to death.” There are some important matters of context here. I also look forward to and enjoy my life. Enjoy the journey as they say. I do, and during life’s journey you hit milestones along the way and they are exciting too. Death is just the ultimate milestone in mortality and it is not to be feared in some terrible way. “If ye are prepared you shall not fear.” Read that somewhere.
Death; it seems to me, is to be prepared for by living a great life and helping others along the way. Embrace your mortality and “Live like you were dyin’” as the country song goes ; – )
All the Best,
Bill
Hi Bill,
yeah, my apologies, i do go on a bit
I don’t really see the arrogance in asking for evidence, and the supposed evidence so far has been abysmal to say the least. I’m not willing to suspend all reason, and stop questioning, especially considering the thousands of denominations of Christianity that can’t even decide amongst themselves what version is correct, let alone other religions.
I’m pretty sure God could understand that, and if it turns out that it is indeed the case that God wants blind worship, well then, (insert extreme language here) him, i don’t want any part of that, and maybe you should try explaining to children that are starving and dying of cancer that it’s all ok, because it’s part of Gods big picture! Sorry to be harsh, but that’s the way i see it.
The good news is i must be ‘prepared’ because i don’t fear Death, and i certainly do like the line ‘Live like you were dyin’ – but i hate country music haha
Cheers Bill, take care
Rob
Rob,
It’s utterly fascinating to watch you get presented with evidence that you are clearly unable to deny for the existence of God – for example the fact that evolution itself requires codes to exist and all codes you have ever seen are designed.
To that, you simply retort that this is a ‘god of the gaps’ argument and sweep it off the table.
You have thus constructed a worldview in which any evidence you are given is automatically disqualified no matter what. You’ve done this repeatedly.
This is exhibit “A” of psychological denial.
You’ve been given all the evidence you’ve asked for and you have no excuse for not believing in a higher power.
If you disagree, then show me a code that’s not designed. All you need is one.
Hi Perry,
Despite your best efforts, you are correct, you haven’t convinced me.
I deny your evidence based on the fact that you make incredible leaps and assumptions in your argument, asserting that no codes occur naturally is circular, because it assumes DNA did not come about naturally. You plainly lay down the challenge and say, here’s my idea, now prove me wrong.
The simple fact of the matter is, that your argument IS a god of the gaps argument, which is fine, you can take that position if you wish, (personally i think that’s the lazy, easy answer that tries to fit things with what you wish to be true) and so far everyone that’s tried to fill a gap with God has eventually been proven wrong, so at the very least the odds are in my favour. That’s not to say you’re incorrect, i just think it’s highly unlikely given the assumptions you make in your argument.
It’s the same as every other creationist, just a more complex version that not many people understand, which makes it easier to pull the wool over peoples eyes (don’t get me wrong, i do believe that you are sincere in your arguments, i don’t for a second think you are intentionally misleading anyone).
It’s not up to me to disqualify your evidence, which is why i applaud you for at least attempting to get parts of your hypothesis into the scientific community. We both know that you’re a LONG way from proving your case in the real world, it really still is just that, a hypothesis – once it becomes an accepted scientific theory by the majority of the scientific community that DNA code is indeed designed via a higher intelligence then i will more than likely be happy to concede that i was wrong.
It’s doubtful that will happen though because it seems that your way of spreading the ‘truth’ is through the general layperson who has very limited understanding of information theory and DNA and they’re much easier to convince, which is why so many people are sucked in by the likes of Kent Hovind (who i’m sure you’d agree can make a convincing argument to a person who perhaps doesn’t know any better).
My worldview can change (i used to lean much more towards the side of believing there could be a God, but i would probably have still been considered agnostic i guess). I’m actually quite happy to be wrong, it means i’m learning, but you can’t bully me into it i’m afraid.
Maybe i am in denial, but i put it to you that i could say the same for you if you don’t want to take my point of view as correct – but that wouldn’t really get us anywhere would it? If we really must go down the personal insult road, then maybe the fact that PZ Myers and the like poke fun at you and your theories lends a little credence to YOUR denial?
Some people say that the bible is undeniable proof that god exists – should i take that on face value also, despite all the evidence to the contrary?
If we’re going to be allowed to make leaps and assumptions like yours, then my one code that is not designed is ………….. DNA (see how silly that is?)
Cheers
Rob
Perry, Rob,
Both of your arguments are based on the idea that proof for or against the existence of God can be found objectively in the material universe. Both of you make intelligent, learned & reasonable arguments for your respective positions. Yet, it appears obvious that neither of you are going to provide any, or enough, evidence to win your case and convince the other of the rightness of your position. The argument is never going to be won or lost on a rational basis alone.
To those who know – no proof is necessary, to those who don’t – no proof is sufficient.
The rational mind will always provide a rational explanation confirming your own particular bias – Confirmation Bias, if that is the purpose you set for it.
What I would find more productive, if I was on either side of the argument (which I’m not as I’ve already stated my position) is “What is it that’s driving me to have this argument?”
Often, the arguments we have are compensating for an unconscious belief in the antithesis of the thesis we are arguing for.
Possibly it is because Rob has a secret belief in God, or need for belief in God that he keeps secret – even from himself, and Perry has an unconscious doubt in the existence of God, of which he is afraid to admit – even to himself.
Just putting it out there
Bernard,
In Romans 1 Paul said: “They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.”
This is an accurate statement and I think that the existence of the supernatural can be determined by reason alone.
Now I also think that ONLY operating according to reason is tantamount to dismissing art, music, emotions, and all things subjective.
Nevertheless the material universe cannot explain itself. The laws of physics cannot explain themselves. We know that from watching “God of the gaps” arguments for 500 years – yes, Rob has a point to a degree, and up to a point I agree with him. But he also fails to acknowledge that every single question that science answers only raises three more questions. The more self-sufficient the universe is, and the more we discover about all of the processes within it, the higher the deck is stacked at the big bang itself. What an unfathomably extraordinary and fine-tuned event.
The #1 atheist philosopher of the 20th century, Antony Flew, converted to deism in 2004 in his 80′s, precisely because after 50 years of watching the ping pong ball go back and forth, he saw the gap between naturalistic explanations and science grow wider. And wider. And wider. DNA was what finally convinced him.
The necessity of a metaphysical source of the universe is proven through simple cause and effect; through information theory; through Gödel’s incompleteness theorem and more. Atheists commonly invoke a “multiverse” (something which can in principle never be proven or disproven, and which violates occam’s razor) and all kinds of “well I think it might have happened this way….” arguments. Atheism violates all of its own criteria for skepticism. Skeptics aren’t really skeptics, they’re zealots.
I am not willing to back down on this, because I know better. The “skeptic” can ignore my argument but he has no evidence to present. At the end of the day he can only say, as Rob has said: “Sorry Perry but you still didn’t convince me.”
The point I was trying to make is that the rational argument for or against the existance of God in, or as primary cause of, the material universe has very little practical value because all it is doing is engaging the rational mind in a quest that has little hope of satisfying. The argument itself reinforces defenses on both sides of the argument. So you think you can prove the existance of God through intellectual reasoning alone – so what? Of what value does that serve?
What is of significantly more value – and meaning – is how your belief and faith (in God or otherwise) impacts on your life and the lives of people you engage with – in your family, social, community and business circles.
What you are (the life you lead, how you behave, the things you create etc) is far more convincing than any rational argument. Surely, in all of your sales training you must know that people aren’t convinced by reason alone, people need to be convinced emotionally as well. People engage emotionally when they know they can trust the other person. People engage when they hear a good story told to them authentically. People engage when they can see your actions are aligned with your beliefs and values.
One of the most powerful teachers I had in life was Jerry Jampolsky. It was through his influence that convinced me that ACIM was the path I wanted to take.
My partner and I had been through various personal development seminars and workshops before I had met him. He came to Auckland and gave a simple one-day workshop. The workshop was so powerful and gentle – it was palpable. The thing that really convinced me was his gentleness & respect. Up until that time I had thought that people needed to be challenged & confronted with their “games” in order for them to change. Well, Jerry just turned that on it’s head for me. I was completely transformed, just by being in the same room as him. I wanted whatever he had. He was one of the early ACIM students and was a great example of what the course can do. He didn’t have to argue, evangelize, preach or lecture. He just told his story and the stories of people he encountered – and that was it!
BTW – I had posted a couple of times earlier but they didn’t show up on your blog. Did they get lost or something?
Bernard,
Dale Carnegie said, “A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.” Which is essentially what you’re saying. That’s true. Jerry convinced you through your heart and your head followed.
What is the value of proving God through intellectual means alone?
It shows that spirituality isn’t emotional masturbation or fantasy. It’s based on facts and reason and logic. Theology is reason and logic applied to God and metaphysical questions. The writings of people like Solomon, Augustine, Aquinas, Luther, Edwards and Barth are bulwarks of logic. The writings of people like David, John, Anselm, and St. Theresa of Avila are explorations of the heart.
Rob knows I’m a trustworthy business person. But he prefers to think I’m nutty because I believe in God. He’s entitled to his opinion. He’s demonstrated that he doesn’t want to be convinced; he has chosen to place faith in the belief that science will someday eliminate the need for a First Cause. But he won’t be allowed to misrepresent facts.
Meanwhile, plenty o’ people are watching, and the fact that the new atheism has no logical foundation needs to be made clear to everyone who’s following this thread.
I’ll get to your other questions, I need more time to respond.
Einstein (who did believe in God BTW) said a couple of things that elucidate the situation I think you are in when debating with atheists using science & logic. The first quote that comes to mind is “Everything that can be counted does not necessarily count; everything that counts cannot necessarily be counted.” And the other thing he said is “We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.”
The problem is that you are arguing on their terms. They set the rules “I won’t believe in a God unless you can prove “. Most of them are stuck in a Newtonian/Catrtesian Mechanistic paradigm which dismisses any reasoning process that is not emperically based. It cannot account for life (or any metaphysical phenomenon) outside of that paradigm, because the paradigm specifically excludes any evidence – or explanation – that doesn’t fit within it’s own boundaries. They rationalize any argument in terms acceptable within their own paradigm in order to preserve the “integrity” of the paradigm itself – not for the sake of discovering the Truth.
From my own experience, what it really takes is a radical shift in consciousness, to truly “get it”. Most often this takes the form a traumatic life experience – such as an illness, death of a loved one, an accident, a relationship breakdown, a psychological breakdown, a spiritual crises, a financial meltdown. Eventually you come to a place where you have to admit to yourself “This isn’t working for me anymore – there has GOT to be a better way”
Arguing on their terms is often just an intellectual pissing contest. No one really “wins” because all anyone involved in the debate is merely spinning their wheels in a game of intellecual wankery.
Hi Bernard
I agree with you Bernard that neither of us will provide enough evidence for or against there being a God, no-one has so far, and i very much doubt that Perry is the first, but i don’t think we should stop trying, it’s in out nature to be inquisitive, we couldn’t stop even if we wanted to. I also don’t think it’s in our best interests to assume that God is there, before trying to create an argument in favour of it. Science is supposed to look at what is or isn’t no matter how comfortable or uncomfortable the realities are to us.
Again i agree with you Bernard that it’s our actions and the impact we have on others that really matters at the end of the day, but i think religion is actually detrimental in this regard. For the reasons i subscribe to read ‘God is not great’ by Christopher Hitchens or ‘The end of faith’ by Sam Harris among others (rather than me going on and on about it here). I don’t mean to say that every religious person is hateful and ignorant, far from it, most religious people i know are fantastic and kind people, just like most Atheists i know, but start prodding them on deeper questions and divisions start to come up because they have to reconcile things with the bible or koran etc. i prefer to accept people for who they are and what they do, and i’m free to take each case on it’s merits – as long as they’re genuine and not hurting anyone/thing they’re generally ok with me, and i don’t need the bible or religion to tell me that.
One of the problems that i have is that you claim to ‘know’, and for you – no proof is needed, when you actually can’t possibly know, unless you claim to have a higher understanding than the rest of us. You can claim that you know with all your heart that god is real, but unfortunately that doesn’t make it true. You even say yourself that you had to be somewhat convinced by Jerry first. On that subject and the subject of appealing to emotions i’ll be mischievous and quote Mark Twain – ‘Religion began when the first con man met the first fool’
There would indeed be proof that would be sufficient for me to change my mind, but it hasn’t been forthcoming so far (a fairly large subject in itself so i’ll do my best to stear clear of for everyone’s sanity!).
Your idea that i have a secret need or belief in God, well, if i do, then yes, i’ve been keeping it VERY secret from myself lol.
I have to say, that to hear you’re a fellow Kiwi, i can’t help feeling a little dismayed(for fairly irrational national pride reasons, i admit) – it reminds me of every time Ray Comfort opens his mouth with his creationist drivel, i can’t help feeling a little embarrassed for our small but wonderful country(i live in Australia now but am still a kiwi at heart).
Perry,
I certainly wouldn’t expect you to back down, in fact i’ve been encouraging you to take your hypothesis further. Step up to the plate and take the normal proven scientific methods to take your hypothesis to the next level. It’s easy to blind normal people such as me with complex topics, especially when some big assumptions are thrown in and glossed over. If you think you have the answer, why bother arguing with the likes of me? i’ve already told you why i don’t think your reasoning is sound, but i’m only one person. Why aren’t you making all the necessary steps to get this heard by the people that intimately know these subjects and study them everyday(The paper you mentioned is a fair start, but plenty more work needs to be done), so that in due course your ideas might either become an accepted theory or be blown out of the water by greater minds than mine? Your ideas will remain pseudo-science if you continue doing what you’re doing by trying to convince the general public, and your process actually undermines the normal scientific process by trying to take shortcuts.
I agree science raises more questions than it answers most of the time, but i don’t see that as a bad thing, every bit of it adds to our understanding of how things work. The Big-bang IS unfathomably extraordinary to me, but i’m not so sure about it being a fine tuned event, explosions in general seem quite chaotic to me, at least until gravity takes hold.
btw, do you have ideas on how DNA actually ended up here so long after the planet formed? And the possibility of an RNA world that came before DNA? (seperate questions, so if you have links please point me in the direction if possible rather than having to explain them here).
I disagree that the necessity of a metaphysical source of the universe has been proven (it’s why we’re having this discussion!) – the question might never be fully answered to our satisfaction, but i agree and hope that it can be explained through natural means one way or the other.
On the multiverse idea – whilst it’s a fascinating idea (one that makes my brain hurt with the possibilities) it’s still only an idea, i can’t possibly know one way or the other like you say, and i’ll freely admit to not knowing, just like i freely admit to not being able to prove or disprove the existence of God, my argument is that i don’t think you can either – but again, i encourage you to take it further and try and ultimately prove me wrong.
I don’t think that reason and the arts conflict. I’ve been a musician for most of my life, i am absolutely passionate about music (cept for country and top 40 pop rubbish!) and it has been a bigger part of my life than almost anything else has, but i can still use reason. If you’re talking inspiration and the like, it doesn’t come from God, it comes from years of hard work learning an instrument and listening to great musicians and composers and taking inspiration from them as well as art, books, life etc.
For me personally it would add more credence to your cause if you were just out to prove or disprove that DNA had a creator and you weren’t intermixing bible quotes and believing in improbably miracles and the like by invoking Jesus. The main reason i think you’re ‘nutty’ is because you seem to be trying to prove that YOUR god is real. The very next question after you prove that god is real will be, ‘ok, so which one is it?’ and we already know how much grief that question has generated in the world.
Given the thousands upon thousands of different denominations of Christianity and other monotheistic religions out there all with differing (often undefinable) ideas of god – by definition only one of these is going to be right, and i very much doubt that you’ve managed to pick that one – you, like every other person who reads holy scripture, picks out the bits that work for them and ignores the stuff that doesn’t, or at least works it into a justifiable modal which often goes round in never ending circles chasing it’s own tail with contradictions when asked to explain it in depth. Some of it becomes literal and some of it becomes metaphor, and you can’t prove or disprove that which you can’t first define.
The whole idea of Atheism is that we should strive to use logic and reason and to not take things as a matter of faith, so i’m not sure where you got your concept of atheism from. For those interested in a foundational argument for Atheism and morality seek out Dawkins, Darwin, Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris, Daniel Dennett, Carl Sagan, Betrand Russell, Victor Stenger, Elizabeth Anderson, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Dan Barker etc. etc. (most of these peoples arguments can be found on youtube to get a decent overview, but the books generally go more in depth).
Hi Rob,
Firstly, I don’t claim to “know” in any rational or logical way. To be totally honest it’s more of an assumption, I choose to assume that there is a God. Perhaps it’s because I have a “God Concept” that is quite a bit different than the traditional Christian concept, or any fundamentalist religious version of God. It’s not scientific, it’s more experiential. I’ve had too many “supernatural” or paranormal experiences that seem to be consistent with the idea that there is a universal intelligence beyond my own personal/individual intelligence, that I can access. It’s more of an intuition – or inner knowing – than an external verifiable fact. I don’t think anyone actually has to believe that there is a God, or believe in God for them to have experiences similar to what I have had. In fact I think everyone has had moments of transcendence that lift them out of ordinary everyday consciousness to transcendent state. These moments can be triggered in all sorts of ways, listening to music, communing in nature, making love, witnessing the birth of a child, reading poetry, appreciating a work of art, even experimenting with hallucinegetic drugs (as did Carlos Castaneda).
For the record, I don’t prosletyize, evangelize or moralize my relationship with God, I prefer to let my life and behavior be a testament – if it need be. I don’t keep score, or try to be a shining example. I endevour to be as authentic as I possibly can.
I too cringe when I see Ray Comfort proclaiming creationisim and the biblical version of God. Maybe it’s a Kiwi thing – the cringing I mean
BTW – Where do you live in OZ? Melbourne by any chance? Be nice to catch up for a beer & continue our chat in person.
Hi Perry, God bless you for trusting in Him. I believe you know the consequences of sharing your faith with us who follow your online business writing. I was hugely encouraged to find you too were a Christian when you shared the story of Christmas a couple of years back. Some will mock, some will unsubscribe, some will be challenged and some will be saved. Praise God! God uses us when we step out for Him and bless you for doing just that. With love in Christ, Steve.
May it be possible that when you study the logic interpretation of the evolution: something will come to excistence after and in reaction of things that excists already before. So, we are the consciouness of the spirit of the cosmos? And are we humans the missing link? Thank you Perry for your eye-opener it gives me more nuaces of the great questions of life.
…….
Ha! A pastors kid!! Dude you totally ROCKED it
with this here post.
In todays awesome opportunity filled world we need
to build right relationships based on intimacy and
genuine love.
This is what it’s all about, bottom line.
I respect you so much for this buddy, be cool and have an awesome weekend.
Marcelino Latorre aka: Chicago Park-hearse
e-Marketing Enthusiast
http://how-to-e-marketing.com
…………
I love when oppostion knocks someone with no real basis, and then when challenged won’t step up to the plate or research on their own. I’m referring to the atheists here and the people you challenged to radio and other debates that wouldn’t show. Too bad for them.
I once had a debate with a gentleman that wasn’t sure if he believed or not. And he thought maybe I was just wasting my time praying and going to church. He asked me what if I was wrong. I said, “well, I’m not hurting anyone by praying for them or hindering any of my progress in life, if there’s nothing after this, so be it.” Then I said to him, “but if you’re wrong, eternity is a mighty long time, and you can’t say no one tried to tell you.”
He has since done extensive research, joined a church and prays frequently. It wasn’t necessary to debate him extensively, he was wise enough to follow his conscience.
I find a lot of Atheists and Agnostics tend to start out having debates with theists, however, over time they learn that most of the theists arguments end up in never ending circular reasoning with gets no-one anywhere, or if the Atheists can’t come up with a suitable answer due to not being an expert or not having thorough knowledge of a particular subject (let’s say physics or evolution for example), the theist is quick to jump in and say A-ha! must be God! (called the God of the gaps argument). It’s a pity, because God is not a very satisfying answer to many of our unanswered questions, and it seems irresponsible to jump to the conclusion that if we don’t know how something works – God must’ve done it.
There can be far reaching consequences for “it’s not hurting anyone by praying” depending on who’s doing the praying and which religion/church etc. they’re doing it at. For most moderates it’s probably not an issue, but some end up taking it further and it ends up in the political sphere and also seeks to damage the credibility of scientific research (scientists are already skeptical by nature, which means they generally check and re-check their hypothesis and put it in front of their peers to be scrutinized and falsified, so it’s annoying when psuedo-scientists and theists come up with a ridiculous argument that halts progress – stem-cell research anyone?).
Religion also sticks it’s nose into the private lives of people and has an unhealthy obsession with peoples sex lives. The on-going gay marriage debate stems from this, so going to church can be divisive if you’re taught that homosexuality is not ok.
On the political front, there have been polls to suggest that regardless of their ability to do the job, an openly Atheist candidate wouldn’t have a chance at an election, probably wouldn’t even make it to be a candidate! now that’s just plain STUPID!!!
Oh, and i’d hate to be in your shoes if you make it to the afterlife and you find out you’ve picked the wrong God, all the mono-theist gods i’m aware of tend to be jealous Gods. You also mentioned a point that i brought up in a previous post to Perry – the whole carrot and the stick argument ‘eternity is a mighty long time’ – i can’t worship a God who would condemn a person for eternity if that person felt they didn’t have enough evidence to make up their mind, and if/when i meet that God, i’ll tell him/her/it as much. (to be fair to Perry, his personal God wouldn’t do that)
Sorry for the long-winded reply, i get carried away
Dana,
Wow! Great prognosis. I’ve used something similar before with non-believers. I tell them that at least I will die with hope of eternal life with God and then ask them what they will take with them when they depart. Usually I get the silent treatment.
Your comment about prayer not hurting anyone is so obvious that I missed it. Thanks for mentioning that. Now I have something else to add!
God bless.
Andrew
Well I guess I haven’t been paying attention to your “Articles and Editorials” section! You have written a very interesting article and I need to explore the various links some more. My spiritual journey has certainly had many ups & downs over the decades.
“Infinite Possibilities” and “Manifesting Change” by Mike Dooley are two of the most helpful books I have ever read.
Hi
Very interesting indeed and I will need to re-read again; but how do you relate to people like Neil Asher who has taken my money but failed to deliver and though he offers ‘guarantees’ he refuses to refund money invested in his projects.
I am not alone in being rippwed off by this chappie.
Your comments on this awaited with interest
Best wishes
John
John, not sure what to tell you. As you can understand it’s not something that I can probably help with, I don’t know this person. Caveat Emptor.
Hi Perry,
Not too much to comment on besides I loved the post and am really glad you sent out an email the other day pointing to it. I just finished reading it and will dive into many of the links in a moment.
One thing I really did want to comment on is being a Pastor’s Kid. I, too, am a “PK”. And though at times I hated it and have experienced the pressure we can often feel because of it, I’m really glad to be one.
Because we do pass through a trial by fire. If you feel accosted at times by religious folks sharing their belief, imagine that being a daily part of your life.
It becomes so very personal and infuriating. There were times, with middle finger raised to the sky, I would shout Come get me You blankety blank blank! I don’t believe in You!
It led to long hours of debate and study. It led to a soul searching of such a profound degree. To tell you the truth, I never wanted to believe. I fought it tooth and nail.
Yet, it ultimately led to a relationship with Him that I cannot deny and that I now cherish. There came a time when I had no choice but to say, OK. I believe. I don’t like it, and I’m not sure I even like You. But I believe. So… where do You and I go from here?
Anyway, I just wanted to share that. Thank you for sharing with us, too. I’m greatly looking forward to reading more and hearing your thoughts.
Vincent Parker
I relate. As do many.
Perry
Sifting through all of the posts above just reinforces the issue that was raised in Eden: Jehovah’s sovereignty and that he has the right to rule over man. All put into question by a rebel, Satan. **(Laugh all you want, just re-read Genesis chapter 3 CAREFULLY!)
Another analogy, I’ll use Perry’s biz. Imagine if someone (a nobody) came along and said everything Perry teaches in Maui or at your Bob-Sled runs was garbage and said you were a liar and not worthy of any respect. How would Perry handle it? If you were very powerful, you may discredit him right away but you also may decide to let him prove his claim **(a ‘give him enough rope to hang himself’ scenario), that, in essence, is what Jehovah has done with Satan. The results are quite evident. It is the most important court case ever!
What you are all missing is that Satan is ruling this world, thus the confusion (see above posts and all other religious debates. Satan loves it, confusion and distraction, great!) Jesus believed in Satan and Satan offered him rulership over THE WORLD’S Kingdoms for ONE act of worship. How could Satan offer Jesus something that wasn’t his to give? (Think hard folks and look at world events.)
Satan has pulled off the greatest con of all time, making people believe he doesn’t exist. Jehovah has purposely ‘stood down’ because of the issues Satan raised in Eden. Jehovah plans to ‘take back control’ VERY SOON though. Everything is unfolding as He wants.
** If you are sincerely interested in how God’s purpose has developed over the ages and where we are ALL headed, you need to read a publication by Jehovah’s Witnesses with an open mind, entitled: What does the Bible REALLY teach? (220 pages)**(emphasis on the word ‘really’.)
If one decides to remain atheistic, agnostic or ‘believe something else after that, it’s only for one reason: You don’t want to answer to anyone and/or what God requires of us is not to your liking. Which, sad to say, is a very dangerous gamble to take considering the time-period we’re living in.
“The world is passing away and so is its desire, but he that does the will of God remains forever.” – 1John 2:17
Jehovah isn’t taking us to another dimension, he plans to clean up this dimension, EARTH! **(Only a small group receive life in heaven. Think of God’s Kingdom Gov’t in heaven and they are the Senators/Ministers)
Jehovah sent his only begotten son Jesus to die for us, that’s how much he loves us and wants us to live in paradise on a cleansed earth! As he originally planned.
The big question: What does God require of us now? It’s our turn to do something. We need to take a stand.
By the way, you won’t believe in the trinity after reading the book, largely because you don’t need to.
One more thing: Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t get ‘brownie points’ for ‘converting’ you. We just tell it like it is and world events are backing it all up. Most people didn’t listen to Jesus. We’re used to the same treatment, like him we just press on because he said to. The choice is yours. I hope you’ll all read the book. Just ask a witness next time we knock!
Hey Stephen,
I think you miss the point of why people choose to be Atheists, or Agnostic – it’s generally because of a lack of proof – you seem to be coming from a point of view that the bible is fact and you are projecting your assumption onto us. Gods existence can’t be proven or disproven (what you feel in your heart wouldn’t stand up in a court as proof i’m afraid). I choose not to believe in miracles and magic based on the current evidence we have.
All your wishy washy non-descript doomsday scenario’s sound impressive, but they’re always so watered down – ‘very soon’ sounds ominous but doesn’t cut it i’m afraid. The Lord is omnipotent and all powerful so he should at least be able to give us an exact time and date that this is all going to go down no? In fact Jesus was a doomsdayer himself – and he said that the end times would happen in his followers generation, i guess he missed the mark there.
So i guess you’ll have to conclude that i’m just a part of Satan’s plan or whatever, but that just seems really convenient – it makes it impossible to argue against your position and have any rational discussion which is why Jehovahs (whilst usually always very friendly) get picked on so much.
Personally i think you guys get a raw deal – 144,000 people in heaven (male jews only if i’m not mistaken?) and it’s likely that most of those places are already filled – which means (just going by the numbers) that you and your family are most likely not getting in, but at least you’ll get to inhabit the new earth i guess, but i think if i were you i’d be a tiny bit miffed that i at least didn’t get to check out what heavens like.
Rob
It is possible to have a rational discussion with a witness but you need to have an open mind and stop lying to yourself. (I don’t mean just you, it is what most of us do on a regular basis with many issues. We rationalize.) All I can tell you is to read the book and keep a Bible close by.
It’s not doomsday, it’s ‘clean up’ time, think of this system as a ‘condemed building’. It needs to go, not us but as I said, you need to know what is expected of you. The book will tell you. By the way, it’s nothing terribly difficult to do.
The issue isn’t are you a part of Satan’s world but rather: does he exist? Because if he does, then everything happening on earth right now is backed by an insane meglomaniac,and thus ‘twisted’, meaning, we need to take a stand or we are a part of it. Kind of like what the Libyans are doing right now. There are only two sides.
I’m not miffed about heaven, life everlasting on earth is fine by me. By the way, it’s not just Jewish males up there, it’s people of both sexes, at least formally! LOL
Read the book and decide for yourself, my man! It will answer all the big questions you sincerly have.
Take care
Stephen
Hi Stephen,
I always find it interesting to have a discussion with a witness whenever they knock at my door, and i certainly could be wrong, but i’d like to think i’m fairly open minded – all i’m really after is evidence. I’m open to reading the book though, and i’ll try and remember to ask for it next time they come around.
Last time they came around i gave the guy my copy of Richard Dawkins ‘The Blind Watchmaker’, because he had a very bad understanding of how evolution worked, i’m not sure if he read it or not, but i promised to read one of his in return which was ‘The Bible, god’s word or mans?’ If your book is anything like that, then i will definitely have a few problems with it LOL, they seem to start out ok, trying to be scientific in their analysis, but then make a giant leap to the conclusion ‘therefore god did it’ (same conclusion for all arguments surprise, surprise), i actually found it quite deceitful in that i can imagine a person less inclined to question these things could actually be fairly easily convinced by these arguments, because on the surface they would seem to make some sense.
You get to the heart of my issue when you say, does satan exist? There is no evidence to suggest that he exists, you seem to me to be projecting what’s happening in the world onto something that you hope is true (the heaven part i mean, i can’t imagine you’d be all that happy about satan existing!) What if he doesn’t exist?
You can find signs for anything if you look hard enough, that’s why conspiracy theories are such a popular past time for many internet users – admittedly it gets harder all the time to sort the loons from actual reality, some make very compelling cases.
All i can say is i hope you live a long happy life and that none of what you’re saying happens within our life time – because on the off chance that you’re correct, it’ll be too late for me
Kind regards
Rob
Hey Rob
It’s interesting that you read that particular book. That is really one of the building blocks of why we’re here and where we are going.
If there is even a hint of evidence that He did inspire the sciptures, (and there is much more than a ‘hint’), then that changes everything.
If the bible is His ‘letter to mankind’ about what happened and what is expected of us, then reliance on ourselves goes out the window. As I said in my first post, if it is his word, if Jesus was his son and the Messiah then you must believe in Satan because Jesus did. It is a chain. One link leads to another.
That is why I encourage you to read the book because it answers all the basic questions, once those are right in your mind then everything else falls into place.
The truth is not supposed to be complicated but it does take serious study with an open mind.
Even if Science devoted everything it does for the “positive”, we still die. According to what the bible says, that’s not part of God’s plan. And who would want to live in a Orwellian/BladeRunner type world,anyways? That is where we are headed, 7 Billion plus!
The hope Dawkins and all these other writer’s talk about is temporary at best. Why would I believe in that hope when the Bible offers such an appealing one? The key is to know the truth and stay focused, as Jesus did.
It’s all distraction and deception, it’s all around us and the ruler of this world, Satan is content. You need to prove this to yourself. The book will show you that.
There’s no point in continuing this discussion here, Rob. I hope you read the book with an open mind and check the scriptures. (Any JW will be more than happy to answer any of your questions.) You can get ahold of me any time thru my URL Brandornow dot com.
Take care
Hey Stephen,
yeah, you’re right, probably no point continuing the discussion here, so i’ll close by saying i’m happy to read the book, but if it’s like the other one i read, i suspect i’ll see right through it – reading with an open mind allows me to question, and i like the motto ‘question everything’ which is why i found the other book to be such rubbish. Your religion encourages people to not cherish this live because there’s a better one around the corner, and instead of looking to fix our earthly problems through reason, it leads people to just shrug there shoulders and say – no problem, Jesus is on his way, so why bother trying to fix it when he’ll do it for us. It undermines a lot of the amazing work that some people do to sincerely help people who want to live THIS life, the only one we have any actual evidence for. I for one would rather not expect an afterlife and live my life accordingly, and be pleasantly surprised if there is one – i’ll have no problem admitting i was wrong.
Thanks Stephen, interesting as always.
I think you have a revised version of Think and Grow Rich book in you that throws out the “downright shallow and cheesy” and wrong content but corrects it with the book of Proverbs.
Have you read Napolean Hill’s Grow Rich with Peace of Mind ? One of Dan Kennedy’s favorites. I thought it was good too.
Just a thought after I read your email. Your a great writer and I would love to purchase Revisited Version someday.
Kurt Hjelle
I will broach some of these topics in the emails that follow on this series. Good suggestion. Nice to hear from ya, Kurt.
There is a wealth of information here! I work at a college with evolutionists, and hope to find the time to explore some of the ideas on your websites. My son went to a Christian school; their textbook disproved Darwinian evolution BEFORE it launched into creationism.
And now I have a request which may seem self-serving, but please bear with me: A week before Christmas my mother suffered a major heart attack. She was given “minutes to hours” to live with no hope of regaining cognitive function. Five days later she was sent home with no damage from the heart attack. I’ve written an “Advance Directive Warning” where I show that the ER doctor was attempting to use our poorly worded Advance Directive as a reason to let her die. This is also a story of God’s intervention! If you feel it’s worthwhile, please publish this link:
http://ezinearticles.com/?Advance-Directive-Warning&id=5619858
Thank you.
Hi Perry
Like you, I was brought up in a Christian home, although I am now Buddhist.
Like you, I am an internet / Adwords marketer, although I am not a “Google guru” like you.
Like you, I believe in intelligent design, although I don’t believe this categorically proves the existence of a personal God.
I personally believe in the conscious energy of a compassionate universe – I guess you could call her God – and that within this “consciously compassionate universe” that events occur as …
the Perfect thing
at the Perfect time
in the Perfect order.
In my case, as one example, as I have had chronic health issues for years and can’t work full time, so my internet business has been a miracle of provision and timing – an all round “God send.”
In your email you wrote, “insights show up precisely when they were needed. Sometimes it’s been downright spooky.”
What I am asking is what “spooky” examples you can give, by way of a blog post or a reply, from your own life.
I would love to hear them.
kind regards
Harley M Storey
Auckland,
New Zealand
PS. and THANKS for all your info over the years that has helped a newbie like me make a living.
Harley,
You’ll hear some of those “spooky” stories in the days to come.
Peace,
Perry
Kudos Perry!
Reading “The Mathematics of DNA” about fractals and the golden ratio is just like reading Robert Prechter’s and A.J. Frost’s book, Elliott Wave Principle.
In it they show the golden spiral is everywhere… in pine cones, sunflowers, sea horses, ram horns, our ear drums, hurricanes, ocean waves, spiraling galaxies,… even in stock, bond, currency and commodity markets.
But what really blew me away is when I found the golden spiral in the temples here in Asia.
In the Taoist temples in Taiwan for example, you will see a dragon holding the Chinese character “Wang” in one claw which means “king”. In the other claw it is holding a ball or pearl with the golden spiral on it.
Other times you will see the pearl with the golden spiral on it between two dragons looking at it.
Then there is the famous Buddhist temple in Kathmandu that has two big eyes on it. But between them is the 3rd eye with the golden spiral on it.
Haven’t seen any Christian churches with any golden spiral at all, have you Perry?
Perhaps the crosses inside the churches should conform to the 0.618 ratio. And the churches themselves should all be built on the golden rectangle using Fibonacci numbers like the Parthenon in Greece.
Just a thought. God Bless!
Uncle. Your reasoning is sound and your methods efficient. You are right about the silent masses…you’ve provided an excellent supply of sound wisdom and logic to neutralize the wave of disinformation out there.
Thanks for investing in us.
Did I miss the optin to this new list or do we just come back to this page time to time & see if a new article is live?
http://www.perrymarshall.com/14850/voltage/
An observation on many of the above posts – There seems to be some sort of “insider” vocabulary. I feel like people are using a sort of coded vocabulary that only an “insider” would understand. Unfortunately I do not belong to this group, so much of it goes a little over my head. Question – Why is all this so important anyway? I just want to take care of my family and friends, and live an honorable life, in the classical sense of the word.
Respectfully,
Peter
Sorry for the Christianese. Why is this so important?
If there is a God and God has any intention for the future of humanity, what else could be more important than discerning what that plan is?
Thanks Perry I did’nt know how involved you are in missions and Christianity. I really appreciate your work and the honesty with which you speak. I have recently been studying the prosperity gospel (which I have problems with) and what does it mean to be truly free in Christ with a couple of guys at our weekly bible study. The coffeehouse theology site is just what the doctor ordered, the problems I have with the prosperity gospel is the focus seems to be placed on us and not God, it treats God like the butler in the sky. Ok God I want xy&z and here is a couple of bucks to make it happen, formulaic which does not require faith. I am still working through these thoughts do you have any comments? Thanks Perry I really appreciate your work on both ends.
I don’t like the prosperity gospel either. That said, however, I think it is very much true that God wants to bless us.
In fact the only reason there’s not more blessing is, because we’re in a war between good and evil. I do think that the ministry of Jesus has profoundly impacted the economics of the world in all kinds of subtle ways. More about this at http://www.coffeehousetheology.com/equality-technology/
I encourage you to not resist the blessings God wants to give you in your life. Nothing could do the world more good than God-fearing people being the leaders, movers and shakers in business.
Onward!
The universe is quite complex, where God is simple.
On the other hand, it is reasonable to appeal to God as an explanation for the existence of a complex universe, since there are good reasons why God would make such a complex universe.
Here is the scientific explanation of the great Thomas, with his doctrine of Divine Simplicity.
http://philofreligion.homestead.com/files/thomas3.html
Too much agnosticism, atheism, apatheism, and hundreds of other ism.
“Whoever lovs discipline loves knowledge,
but he who lhates correction is stupid.”
Proverbs 12:1.
The Proof that God exists is that without Him you couldn’t prove anything.
http://www.proofthatgodexists.org/main.php
The universe is quite complex, where God is simple.
On the other hand, it is reasonable to appeal to God as an explanation for the existence of a complex universe, since there are good reasons why God would make such a complex universe.
Here is the scientific explanation of the great Thomas, with his doctrine of Divine Simplicity.
http://philofreligion.homestead.com/files/thomas3.html
Too much agnosticism, atheism, apatheism, and hundreds of other ism.
“Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge,
but he who hates correction is stupid.”
Proverbs 12:1.
The Proof that God exists is that
without Him you couldn’t prove anything.
http://www.proofthatgodexists.org/main.php
Keep up encouraging the best of us all.
Hi Perry,
This is the second email in 2 days that I’ve gotten from entrepreneurs professing their faith in Jesus Christ. The other one was from Ray Edwards whose email list I subscribe to as well. So, speaking of “spooky”, I sense in my heart that something is “brewing” in the Kingdom…that Christian entrepreneurs are being prepared and raised up for such a time as this. I’m excited, and I can’t wait to learn more about your journey!
Blessings,
Ginny Edwards
Perry, I always knew you are walking the same path I am. I am happy that i have a mentor in the internet world who is not ashamed to declare his status. I stand with you bro. We are looking to be further clothed!!!
Is there a way i can reach you personally. I have some personal questions. Thanks
Perry, as always you manage to amaze me. People really DO want to know everything about the people they do business with. LOL
In all seriousness, though…Thanks for sharing your faith. Frankly, I can count on two hands the number of people I know and have personally met who a. are financially successful at a higher level than me, b. are Christians and people I would consider “integral”, and c. willing to teach and share with others the fundamentals of how they think and act in this crazy world of ours.
And those role models, including you and people like Zig Ziglar or Rick Warren, got me through plenty of times in my early business career when I looked around and saw liars and theives seeming to prosper..and almost against my will, began considering lowering my standards of integrity to make more money…it’s because of the handful like you I never gave in to that temptation, and to this day have a reputation as a man, Christian and businessman that I believe God would be proud of me for building.
Rock on and God bless,
Danny Welsh
Perry, thanks for this site — it is inspiring and thought provoking. I connect to the spirtuality of entrepreneurship. After reading John Eldredge’s The Journey of Desire, I realized I was created in God’s image, with a deep desire “to create” to emulate my Creator.
Well done sir! Not only are you a true professional, but a bold and courageous man as well. I am thankful for men who are not ashamed of the Gospel and Jesus the Messiah. Thanks again for being the incredible role model that you are to business people everywhere.
God is complex and not simple. That is how He could create such a vastly complex world.
Before you put much faith in the “proofs of God” by Thomas Aquinas, you should read chapter 3 in the book The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins. He decimates most of the arguments except the one of intelligent design, which can be proved with logic, math (especially statistics) and science. Consider the Prime Mover or Prime Cause argument. There may have been a prime cause but God would not have to be that cause, unless the structure of the early universe was complex enough to require intelligent design. It was that complex but that is another story.
Gödel’s incompleteness theorem has implications which are eerily similar to Thomas Aquinas’ Via Negativa. Both state that God is not complex but simple. Gödel’s work necessitates it. See http://www.perrymarshall.com/articles/religion/godels-incompleteness-theorem/
As a devout Frisbeetarian, I consider Christianity a messy myth, rife with homophobia, lies, cultural myopia and interfering missionaries. OTOH, I relish all essays from Planet Perry. Glorious story-telling, wry and human, you’re my favorite teacher. Sign me up. XOXO Julie
*Frisbeetarianism: we believe that when you die, your soul flies up and gets stuck on the roof.
Julie,
As always, all the folks in Planet Perry love you :^>
Perry
Psalm 37:23 The LORD makes firm the steps of the one who delights in him;
Thanks Perry
This is for all the non-believers. What is your ultimate goal in life if you have no belief in heaven or hell. After all, if there is no God, there can’t be an after life.
And what is the purpose of a conscience? Why have right and wrong if there’s ultimately no reward or eternal punishment.
You can’t see gravity either, but you’re not going to step off a bridge to prove a point.
I pray for you non-believers. All of us are going to die, and just because you don’t believe doesn’t get you a free pass. God’s not going to say, “oh, you didn’t believe in me so you’re innocent of all sins.” Sorry, it’s just like when your parents taught you right from wrong and you chose not to listen.
I wrote this at fifth grade level so everyone can understand. There’s no need to make it complicated. God is something you have faith in, and is beyond human understanding.
Hi Dana,
Correct, we believe there is no afterlife, but why is that such a bad thing? It means my goal in life is to focus on making my life the best one i possibly can for myself and those around me, because i know i’ve only got one chance. I am free to focus on the people i love and the things that i contribute to society instead of worrying what God might think and whether or not i’ve done something wrong in my life that’s going to steer me to hell.
Right and wrong is innate, evolution takes care of that and it has helped us to survive. If we were inherently bad on the whole, then we would be one of the species that never made it this far. There will always be a certain amount of bad, but if it ever starts to tip the scales and we don’t care for and look after our loved ones, then we’re doomed. Animals look after their young and protect them from harm, they know it instinctively, we’ve just evolved to be able to question it.
Being an atheist means that when i help someone i’m not helping them because i’m looking to store up brownie points with God like some giant version of Santa’s naughty or nice list, i’m helping them for the sake of helping them.
I don’t need to step of a bridge to prove gravity, i can just drop my pen instead.
Please don’t waste your time praying for the likes of me, we don’t want to be prayed for. I’m not looking for a free pass, but if God has decided that i’m not worthy of his magic touch but you are, then i can’t really do too much about that. Oh, and the older i get the more i realise that my parents had the best intentions, but they were sometimes wrong.
You seem to be saying that God is real, but it’s something that is beyond human understanding – and yet you seem to understand it very well? Otherwise you wouldn’t be able to tell me that it’s true. I could say the same thing about the fairies at the bottom of my garden – i have faith that they’re there, so it’s true. Sorry, to me that just seems like a cop-out for the lazy and the gullible.
Dana,
Unfortunately your attitude pretty much sums up the reason for my decision to look beyond Christianity for my spiritual development.
If your belief in God is based primarily on whether or not it gives you a free pass to heaven, and your conscience is ruled by this belief – then I question the integrity of your belief. Too many Christians operate within the constraints of this thinking thus preventing them from really maturing into the people they can potentially become. Fortunately there are Christians like Perry, who demonstrate a willingness to question their beliefs which I personally find very encouraging.
How is it that we think?
Where do our thoughts come from?
How do the bits of physical matter that constitutes our brains generate conscious thought?
I always wondered this in my anatomy class in PT school while dissecting our cadaver.
Common sense suggests that our thoughts must be connected to the rest of existence somehow.
With the discovery of radioactivity in the late 1890’s, scientists began looking into the world with the atomic nucleus, and they were shocked to discover some interesting things.
The term atom means indivisible unit. But radioactivity showed us that the atom was divisible. In fact, there was a whole new world of phenomena inside the atom.
What comes to mind when I mention the name Albert Einstein?
I think “genius” and E=MC2. This means Energy = mass times the speed of light squared.
He introduced his own picture of how the world works: The theory of Relativity.
This theory describes how energy and matter are not only related, but can be transformed back and forth into each other.
Quantum Physics is the study of how the world works on the smallest scale, at a level far smaller than the atom. As scientists began to study the nature of reality on a smaller and smaller scale, something strange began to happen.
The deeper we went into reality, the more it seemed to dissolve from view.
The Einstein breakthrough comes down to that Everything is Energy. A rock, a planet, a glass of water, your hand. Its all made of molecules which are made of atoms, which are made of protons and electrons and neutrons, which are made of nothing but vibrating pockets of energy.
What is this energy? What could this force be?
The search was then on for an underlying force that could bring together all the different kinds of energy they knew of.
As scientists kept exploring on very small scales, they eventually found themselves staring at something confounding.
They termed it the zero-point field because at this most infinitesimal of levels, some sort of force appears to be present even at a temperature of absolute zero, when all known forms of energy vanish.
This field at this level is not exactly “energy” anymore, nor is it a field of empty space.
It is best described as a field of information.
A sea of pure consciousness. Consciousness is what the universe is made of.
It has been described for thousands of years and in a multitude of terms of the existence of God.
If Quantum Physics proves that God exists, why wouldn’t you want to work with his laws and understand how He works to impact your life.
Which are you? I think science shows you the answer.
Hi Kurt,
That sums up the existence of consciousness and how consciousness is the primary ground of all physical phenomena, yet to call this consciousness “God” is still a philosophical leap.
Thanks for your erudition though – very well put
Rob,
Congratulations. I’m sincerely happy you’re a good person looking out for and willing to help others. But I’m still going to pray for your kind, atheists. It’s for the simple fact there’s always a chance you’ll change your mind and come to realize there is a God, and only one.
You see, once you’re dead it’s too late to accept God’s teaching. Your chance is over. It’s kinda like that Tsunami that just hit Japan. Some people were warned and told to get off the beach, but they couldn’t see any danger and thought they had nothing to worry about. But then when the waves came rushing in, unfortunately it was too late for them. It was over! God’s something I don’t have to totally understand in order to believe.
The problem/concern is this life is so temporary compared to our eternal after life. And just because you don’t believe in the after life, doesn’t matter, because you’re going to spend it somewhere.
There’s no use debating you, after all, you have your fairies in your garden.
The liberal class is discovering what happens when you tolerate the intolerant. Let hate speech pollute the airways. Let corporations buy up your courts and state and federal legislative bodies. Let the Christian religion be manipulated by charlatans to demonize Muslims, gays and intellectuals, discredit science and become a source of personal enrichment… and you roll out the welcome mat for fascism.
Chris Hedges makes the case for justice:
http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/power_concedes_nothing_without_a_demand_20110314/
Hi Perry,thanks so much for this article,I am also born again christian for 28 years now,I am a newbie when it comes to the internet but I am glad for this article,I have been recieving e-mails from you for a while now and of all the other marketers that I have unsubscribed I new the articles I recieved from you were valueble and I enjoy reding them,as a matter of fact I wondered wether you could be a christian because of the way you come acrss in your e-mails,Iwill deffinately read your “spiritual” articles.I am an ordained minister and I am in the process of sifting through a lot of material on internet busines,one of my goals is to create an income online (not as easy as some claim)and start teaching the word again.Thanks again for the articles.
Excellent Article, God Bless you
Perry, you might be interested in Stephen Hawking’s interview in the Guardian:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2011/may/15/stephen-hawking-interview-there-is-no-heaven
XOXOJ
Hey,
I would like to know Perry Marshall’s viewpoint regarding morality. Where does it come from? Is it objective or subjective? Some atheists claim that humans are born with some ”golden rules” in them and God is not necessary for that. How do you explain this?
Regards
Atheists can give you all sorts of biological / evolutionary reasons why it’s good to be moral but biology can give you equally as many reasons to fill ditches with dead bodies. Absolute morality can only come from God. I think it’s objective. Everybody knows in their heart that it’s wrong to walk into a daycare center with a machine gun.
I know lots of very moral atheists but their morality doesn’t come from atheism; atheism is amoral.
See also http://www.perrymarshall.com/10043/godels-incompleteness-theorem-the-universe-mathematics-and-god/#comment-32049
For the first time, I have written a spiritual comment and posted it on my site. Today, December 25, 2011, seemed the correct day.
I value your being writings and wanted you to read it.
Thanks.
http://dianegold.com/theanswer
Congrats on posting that. It’s ballsy. Ever heard of Tony Campolo? He’s got a blog I think you would like.
Thanks Diane for sharing, and Merry Christmas!