Recently I spoke at an event where numerous people asked me to meet with them, have lunch, etc. I responded: Sorry, no free lunch meetings – if you want to meet with me you need to pay my hourly fee.
I mentioned this in an email and got this reply from Dennis:
Perry
I love your stuff, you are obviously a very talented online marketer. In addition I bet your a good person, I don’t know but I get the feeling you are. However one thing really bothered me that you said in your newsletter dated Tuesday October 28th.
As far as I can deduct you where part of a program that went late into the night that people paid for and after it was over several people wanted to take you to lunch etc, to pick your brain. You response was sure, just pay me my hourly rate. Now I’m all for people getting paid for there time, God knows if you say high to a lawyer your going to get a bill. Wlth that in mind there is such a thing as going to far. It’s called GREED. It’s what the me generation did to this countries economy today. It’s the reason our economy is in such a mess.
I have been here for 58 years and have met many successful people, everyone of these people that I have asked to take to lunch and chat never charged me a dime. And myself being a very successful sales person earning over $100 K per year since 1974 have always given freely to others who asked. My opinion regaring your reponse to a request to do lunch was not being a smart business person, it was greed with a capital G. Come on, lets get real here if this kind of greed does not stop this country is headed for the dumpster.
Can you imagagine having to pay everyone who you asked for advice ? Why not put a hold on the greed and give a little back without getting paid for it. Even the blood sucking lawyers do probono work, even high priced doctors volunteer there skill to help people who can’t afford medical care. Even old John D Rockefeller realised his greed and started giving his money away. Then theres Perry Marshall he won’t go to lunch with eager students and share his knowledge without getting paid. You can rationalize all you want, but your response was arrogant and greedy. Let me summarise, what you did was Bull Shit.
Dennis
This was my reply to Dennis:
Dennis,
Thanks for your note and I can appreciate how my comment made you feel. Yes if someone told me 20 years ago I’d be charging people $700 for lunch and turning away people asking for help, I might have felt the same way as you. As you wrote your email I think you felt more and more angry about it all the time.
My wife read your email and said, “Perry, this guy apparently doesn’t know how many people want to take you to lunch.”
Dennis, I have over 100,000 people on my email list. You have no idea how many people email my office and ask questions – hundreds and hundreds every month. I could EASILY spend all day dispensing free advice. The demand for it it ENDLESS. I could spend every single breakfast, lunch and dinner time slot dispensing free advice and the line would never stop.
At the meeting, had I responded to all those requests I would’ve been out to lunch every day this week dispensing free advice. Remember: I’m not a salesman. I’m a consultant. Advice, not widgets, is what I sell. When you were a salesman you didn’t give away your goods for free and you didn’t feel guilty if they expected you to and you wouldn’t feel guilty for saying no.
There are several reasons why I don’t dispense free advice:
-It would be unfair to those who pay for it, and there are many who do
-People almost NEVER act on free advice, especially if it requires them to do something uncomfortable – so what’s the point in dispensing it?
-If people want free information there are hundreds of pages of free articles and MP3’s on my website and it’s good stuff
-If I gave away my knowledge I would not be able to be generous to those who truly are in need.
You accuse me of being greedy and not being generous. You do not know that. You do not know me at all. You have no business making such judgments. You do not know how many people and/or organizations I DO give free advice to. You do not know who or what I give my money to and it’s none of your business anyway.
Just know this: If I gave away free advice I would have no money to give to AIDS orphans in Africa.
So given that I have people lined up to pay me money (for example if you want a 1 day consultation it has to be booked 1-3 months in advance; phone consults are booked 2-4 weeks in advance) why should I allow people to cut in line and pay nothing?
Would that be right?
Finally, most of the questions people would ask me are already answered on my website or in my products. Most of the business ideas people pitch me with are a waste of time. People who have not read my books or website first usually wouldn’t understand the answer if I gave it to them.
I am known all around the world for my expertise and my time is valuable. I am a STEWARD of my time and I am responsible before God for how I use it. To give it away indiscriminately would be irresponsible and wasteful.
I will give my time to people who earn it and that is why I am then able to be generous with people who need it. Hungry children in Africa need help more than well-fed Americans who are trying to solve their business problems. If they want free advice, they can ask someone else.
When people pay for my time, they get value. In life you usually get what you pay for, and when you pay me $725 an hour [note: my rate has risen since this was written, it is now $4,000 per hour] you get your money’s worth. My job is to deliver that value and make sure that knowledge is put to use for maximal effect to ALL involved – my customers, myself, and the causes that are dear to my heart.
Sincerely,
Perry Marshall
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About the Author
Perry Marshall has launched two revolutions in sales and marketing. In Pay-Per-Click advertising, he pioneered best practices and wrote the world's best selling book on Google advertising. And he's driven the 80/20 Principle deeper than any other author, creating a new movement in business.
He is referenced across the Internet and by Harvard Business Review, The New York Times, INC and Forbes Magazine.
421 Comments on “Perry’s Greed”
If my dance card were full and my time is literally becoming more valuable, I must value myself enough to charge more. Otherwise, I would be doing better and better work for the same rate. I would be stuck serving people at yesteryear’s rates. At what point am I allowed to value my time more? With someone else’s permission?
If people get what they pay for, then this guy was trying to cheat you or guilt you into getting it for free.
I can’t believe the respondents to this issue, most of these idiots don’t get the issue. It’s one word, greed. It’s not about lunch with so and so. It’s not about somebody’s fee. This is about America and the greed driven culture we live in, so I agree with Dennis’s concept. However as Perry mentions, we don’t know what he does with his money, so to accuse him of anything without evidence is absurd. I am glad this discussion has occurred though because I have just signed up to be in Perry’s Renaissance club and I hate greed. An oxymoron, I hope not. I live in SoCal and when I told a young fellow, “You don’t need to be greedy to be a millionaire.” He looked at me real funny, then he thought a minute and said. “No, but it helps.” This is the type of arrogance and greed that is killing America. Every great Empire since the beginning of empires has disintigrated because of one word, greed. The Egyptians, the Romans, the British all of their empires have disappeared because of their greed, and if America isn’t careful, greed will kill us. It already is. It was with trepidation that I signed on with Perry planet, because I can’t stand greedy people because you don’t need to be greedy to be successful and I didn’t want to get involved with yet another group greed driven idiots. Perry seems to have integrity and social responsibility. I am hoping this is the case.
I was totally shocked.
Dennis doesn’t know the difference between TO and TOO. ITS and IT’S.
The guy might be able to sell but he can’t spell. He should hire an editor or writer so he doesn’t look like a third grader. As a copywriter, I find it difficult to take people seriously when they’re 58 and have not addressed a major problem, like spelling.
What you charge is up to you. Who you charge is up to you. When you charge is up to you. Your reply was totally sensible.
Great example of whipping up a controversy to encourage participation and engagement. I’m sure Perry not this big a wanker IRL.
Perry,
I had the pleasure of finally meeting you last year at the GKIC Info Summit. It was actually a big surprise because I didn’t know you were going to be there and I heard your voice as we were all walking into a seminar.
I’m a member of your Mastermind group and we’ve chatted briefly on the phone ahead of one of your telecalls. Also exchanged tweets over the years. I’d always wanted to meet you and missed out on the chance when you were over in London (you clashed with the Pope and a family weddings… I was still tempted!)
Anyway, I just wanted to say thanks for being generous with your time on the day you were a speaker at that event. You came over and chatted with me during the break. You didn’t need to do that. You could have stayed on the stage or headed off to the green room.
The photo of you & I at the event is one of my favourites. It came out quite well! You can see it here.
http://blog.kksmarts.com/seminar-junkies-perry-marshall-and-me/
The next photo I want is you, me and Dan Kennedy outside a private jet as we all head off to do a talk together…. A man’s gotta dream….
Cheers and thanks for all the paid for advice over the years.
Mike
Hey it’s great to have you along and it’s fun to have people who’ve been members for a long time show up at various events!
I have to agree with Dennis in principle.
I wouldn’t so much as refer to your policy on charging for lunch as being “greedy”, but I would say it’s certainly arrogant and unwise and let’s be honest and say it’s a sure fire way to antagonize people when that approach is completely necessary.
Who says that you have to accept every lunch or drinks invitation? There is such a thing as retaining the right to a polite decline without needing to flex your ego and degenerate people into the process.
Maybe you are worth $1400 per hour and maybe you’re not,- but by insisting that you are worth that then you create a self styled paradigm that gives folks the impression that you are.
Dennis is right Perry when he says it costs nothing to give something back once in a while (and to do so over a lunch being bought for you isn’t exactly an unpleasant thing).
He had the right to rebuke you but as the old Jewish proverb goes,.. rebuke a wise man and he will discern knowledge and such rebuke is worth more to a wise man than to a hundred blows upon a fool….
I’d have to say that if you tried pulling that stunt with me Perry I would laugh in your face and publicly disgrace you for your audacity and terribly bad manners and disrespect.
Isn’t it just possible that you could even learn something from one of the people that graciously offer to buy your lunch,… or is that too ludicrous a notion to someone with a huge ego and even larger opinion of themselves?
Everyone has something to offer Perry.
Try to be nice and keep an open mind.
Pride goes before a fall,… might want to watch your step IMHO!
Russell,
What do you believe is the *real* point I was trying to make when I wrote this blog post?
Perry,
First off, you love I know you, and I have spent some bucks with.
But, how do you respond to this issue:
In your blog here (http://www.perrymarshall.com/24024/joe-polish-lead-generation/) you write:
“A long time ago – one year out of the Dilbert Cube, struggling to get my biz off the ground – I cornered Joe in a restaurant at a seminar one night, bought him a hamburger, and picked his brain.”
And I’m assuming you didn’t pay for his time (although you did buy his burger).
What’s the difference?
Isn’t this hypocritical?
I’m having trouble sorting this issue out.
For example, I recently took out the former manager of the Rolling Stones to lunch and picked his brains out (btw, really cool man!).
I didn’t pay for his time.
Anyway, I’m curious to see how you respond to this.
Adam
ps. see you at 4 man in two weeks!
Adam,
GREAT question. I offered to buy Joe a Hamburger. Had he turned me down I would have no right to bitterly complain. But he said “Sure”. I asked him smart questions and I did not waste his time. I did not try to pitch him on some MLM deal, which I’m sure some of the people in that blog post were trying to do.
I do not recall that Joe was one of the speakers. (Though he might have been.) Not being a speaker, it’s not like he was being hounded for advice by dozens of people.
But let’s say he was a speaker.
Well, this was a copywriting seminar that cost $3000 a head. At such an event, the quality of attendees is MUCH higher than the GKIC local chapter where people paid maybe $30. The pro copywriting seminar lasts 3 days, not 3 hours. Everyone is on site, and nobody has to get in their car and drive across town for a lunch appointment. At a high end seminar people aren’t generally asking you newbie-type questions they could easily find in a copywriting 101 book. Whether you’re a speaker or not, dealing with the attendees is a pleasure.
I asked Joe thoughtful questions and he gave me smart answers.
You were recently at one of my seminars, which was similarly priced. 120 people in the room. If you want to talk to one of the speakers it’s not a problem. If they can’t meet with you they’ll just tell you and you’ll be OK with it. If you want to buy a speaker a drink or a burger it’s fine. There’s enough time and enough of everyone to go around.
That’s been true at all my seminars – especially Maui, where you could hobnob with the world’s smartest PPC people with only about 100 folks in the audience and dive DEEP into any topic you want to discuss. The networking was sublime.
It’s one of the reasons you go to elite live events – you’ve paid for that “free lunch” and everyone there, including the speakers, is thrilled to be runnin’ with the big dogs. And the quality of everyone you meet is very, very high.
Ain’t nothin’ wrong with asking or being asked to lunch. And there ain’t nothin’ wrong with charging for your advice and holding out for the dinero.
Perry,
Since I’m a rules type of guy (who then legally breaks them), would it be fair to say “Joe vs Dennis” comes down to:
1.) Place
2.) Context
3.) Intent
4.) Timing
For example, when I met the former business manager for the Rolling Stones, I met him at a Concert Touring Conference. And when the mob of people around him left, I just asked about the industry and it takes to make it.
Nothing specific to me. No pitch. Just wanted to hear his story.
Asked for his card and did the most shocking thing alive: I sent him a thank you note. Crazy, right?
We since have met a couple of times and he revealed a “secret” why the conference is in a odd location:
To create a space & be in place that encourages people to interact with each other.
I now get why you had your Rainmaker Conference in a boring suburb of Chicago (among other reasons of course).
Adam
p.s. I even got a couple of minutes with Ari Galper, who gave me some insights into improving my newsletter.
In a normal world, I’d never get to Ari without a lot of jumping. And the guy is so nice. You can feel it. The guy wants to help. Me too. And what is need are “time guardians” to make sure every second is well invested.
I also got time with so many other amazing people. People with high billable rates freely offering killer advise.
The first email was interesting. Perry’s reply was even better (can’t argue one point in that response). Now I want to see Dennis’ reply. :)
Perry, not only do I agree with your response on this – but I learned a lot from it.
It’s very, very clear following you that you are a religious, family man. I’m quite certain you improve lives as a father and husband, that you give to worthy causes and people in a meaningful way.
Why do so many people who’ve commented not see how foolish it would be for you to go to lunch every time somebody asked? How could you possibly help children in Africa by being poor and giving out free advice?
To the person who mentioned you “might get a client from a lunch”, clearly if it was a person unwilling to even pay your hourly rate it’s not a client you’d want to work with anyway.
It’s easy for people to look at this situation and think you were being “greedy” or something like that. It’s also DAMN FOOLISH. You’re smart and 100% right to focus your efforts in a way that delivers maximum value for all the people in your life and business. Free lunch, free time, free advice is OBVIOUSLY not the way to do that.
Good onya.
You said:
Why do so many people who’ve commented not see how foolish it would be for you to go to lunch every time somebody asked? How could you possibly help children in Africa by being poor and giving out free advice?
To the person who mentioned you “might get a client from a lunch”, clearly if it was a person unwilling to even pay your hourly rate it’s not a client you’d want to work with anyway.
It astounds me how some people simply do not ‘get’ this.
The ones that don’t are rarely customers, and if so, are never good ones.
They think there IS such a thing as a free lunch…. and they’re always broke.
Ironically they are more prone to being ripped off than anybody. Cuz they do pay money for stuff (look in their closets for the package that still has the shrink wrap on it). They just buy stuff that sounds like a free lunch.
It would exceedingly rare for me to get a good-paying client from a free lunch. And you could almost never get a good client from the kind of people who were asking to meet with me.
If you looked at the people who ‘get it’ vs. the people who don’t, the people who get it make more money, learn more, know more, have better customers, are better customers, and most importantly are MORE GENEROUS than the people here who are bitching about it.
Perry Marshall
P.S.: Voting to increase everyone else’s taxes does not count as generosity.
What do you think of the article above, do you freely give to other people. You know that life is all about giving and very often when you give to someone, the universe tends to reward you, as long as you you don’t expect the return to come from the same source as you gave to. So really its irrelevant to whether Perry should give free information for exchange of a free lunch, as long as he is giving back he is helping people and he will continue to be rewarded; how he does this is his choice.
You are 100% right, Perry!
Note: John Carlton said that don’t worry about people who are easily offended, because they are not gonna be good clients anyway.
Perry, I’m thankful and ppreciative of all your free weekly advice, etc. I’m old school about keeping these conversations private as relayed by another person who commented. Today is another day and I hope you and Dennis both realize that the small things like this really do not deserve the attention or time of two highly successful men. Take your wives on a shopping spree instead and enjoy a nice outside stroll! That is what we remember at the end of this great ride. Keep up the awesome work. You are a great contributor to this field and have made a positive impact on the way I do business with all your freely dispensed advice. Best, Teresa PS: Dear Perry and Dennis wives… you can thank me later.. Get that handbag and dress you’ve been eyeing! LOL!!
It appears from the bulk of the comments that we agree that a consultant has the right (and some say obligation) to charge for his time. I also agree with the few that spotted the “hand grenade” in the room. If the response to the question about lunch was a terse and abrupt as it seems from Perry’s recounting of the event – then the entire incident should have been avoided. I do find it hard to believe than an articulate professional as Perry seems to be from his writings would have hit that button, but if he did, that is the likely cause of the less than articulate and ill-reasoned response.
As to Dennis – he doth protest too much. There are many organizations of volunteers in who give their time freely to help start ups and small businesses (who may not yet be able to afford the consultation fees). It takes work to make work, work.
Mr. Marshall,
I completely understand your point in wanting to charge for your product, your “consultant advice”. It’s a sound dictum and you are absolutely correct – it’s your product, and potential customers should pay for it. I do not think you are brilliant, but i applaud you for building your empire and exploiting your resources to your advantage. Good job! You might want to remind those who write to you to use English and “Grammar Check” their documents. Word choice also helps…there is something to be said for a well written response using interesting words. I have read a sampling of these blog posts. Most that I have read agree with most or part of your substantive response. For me, your most important comment is that recipients of free advice, or free anything, “do not act on it”, typically do not use, take advantage or profit from that article because they do not intrinsically see any value to it. IN our “freebie”‘ promo culture, we have been conditioned to the expectation that everything should be “free” from educations to your advice….and this guy is just caught on that treadmill among many others. When a client has to pay a something for advice, whether it is your full fee or reduced fee (to adjust for a non-profit for example), there will always be a level of appreciation for the service. And as they say, there is no such thing as a “free lunch”.
In addition to writing the check for the starving children in Africa, consider giving your time to a non-profit in an area OUTSIDE of your expertise. That is true “free” time that will be appreciated by those beneficiaries of the organization itself. Of course, your family comes first (charity starts at home), but giving a little free time in an area that is foreign to your profession might teach you something about your self and the needs of others. GBB
There is no such thing as a free lunch.
Perry is a worldwide expert on marketing, his time costs money.
Simple.
I think this thread is an odd, but interesting, tangent from the usual.
My post (a replies few back) originally questioned Perry introducing morals into his reply Dennis and I still think this is shaky ground.
I read every one of Perry’s emails because he’s good. Simple as that. One of the best in fact.
Yet I’m still unsure of introducing a moral argument into not lunching with someone.
I sell my time too. Not for as much as Perry, but the principle is just the same. If someone asks me to lunch and I have time I’ll go. If I don’t I’ll just say “sorry, I can’t do that right now”. And this is the bit I don’t understand with Perry’s reply to Dennis: never once have I felt the need to make the excuse that I can’t give someone time for lunch due to the number of starving Africans that need my time instead.
At a push I might say that I can’t lunch today but if you need to contact me here’s my card and then tell them it’ll cost them.
You see, morals are dubious in business. And the bit I don’t understand about Perry’s argument is that one justification he gave for not lunching with Dennis is that he couldn’t devote his time “to those who truly are in need”.
So what if Dennis pays Perry’s fees? He gets the lunch but what happens “to those who truly are in need”? Has that time been taken away from them because Dennis paid the fee? The hours that Dennis would have had for free, but has now paid for, have gone. And money, not morals, is why they’ve they gone.
See what I mean? I just don’t think those sorts of moral arguments have a place in business.
Hugh,
Bill’s argument was a moral argument in the first place.
He said I was greedy – in other words IMMORAL – for not having lunch with him. He even blamed people like me for the downfall of America.
I played by his rules. I replied that if you want to bring morality into it — if it’s immoral to charge a person for your time, because you ought to be generous — then the question of what is the most generous thing to do with your time necessarily comes into play. And who is most deserving of that generosity. Because nobody can offer unlimited generosity.
Is the most generous, least greedy thing I can do with my time to have lunch with…. Bill?
If I get $1300 from Bill, is the most generous, least greedy thing I can do with my $1300 to give it to…. Bill?
Why don’t you guys discuss that for awhile. I’ll be interesting to see what you decide.
You said:
“Never once have I felt the need to make the excuse that I can’t give someone time for lunch due to the number of starving Africans that need my time instead.”
Q: Have you ever given any of your time to Africans? Have you ever had to work a trip to Africa into your busy schedule? Have you ever had to pay for the plane fare?
Finally, I would also love for y’all to further discuss whether or not moral questions have a place in business. If they don’t, does that make it immoral to discuss morality here?
Hi Perry,
“Is the most generous, least greedy thing I can do with my time to have lunch with…. Bill?”
But you intimated that you would have lunch with him if he paid. The use of your time is not determined by the needs of starving Africans but by whether or not bill pays.
Perry, I want to be clear here: I am by no means saying you are uncharitable, greedy or any of those things. I don’t know you but my impression of you is that you’re a decent bloke.
What I’m discussing here is the specific reply you gave Dennis and how the moral arguments may or may not cross into business decisions.
“Q: Have you ever given any of your time to Africans? Have you ever had to work a trip to Africa into your busy schedule? Have you ever had to pay for the plane fare?”
No, but I have given my time to both multiple sclerosis and dementia charities. It’s not that I don’t support African charities and I do give money to them but it’s just that I’m more active in other charities. I’m don’t believe the particular charity in question is important to our discussion though.
“I would also love for y’all to further discuss whether or not moral questions have a place in business. If they don’t, does that make it immoral to discuss morality here?”
There a place for business morals in business. Not ripping people off, being fair and honest etc. Not so sure there’s a place for the wider set of morals in it.
I think most people have work time and non-work time and would consider their charitable activities to be part of the non-work time allotment.
You said,
“I think most people have work time and non-work time and would consider their charitable activities to be part of the non-work time allotment.”
That’s why I will meet with Bill in my work time if he pays. And that is why I will not meet with Bill during my charitable time if he doesn’t pay.
Okay Perry, you win!
I can’t help but think we’re missing each others points here.
Perhaps we should discuss is over lunch :)
Anyway, keep writing good stuff and I’ll keep reading it.
One other thing. Perry considers himself a celebrity (actually, is one, based on the number of followers he has) and manages his time with that notion in mind.
Dennis the salesman critic is a nobody, like me, like almost all of you.
Nobodies like us will have lunch with anyone who is interested in our services. We need to. We’re nobodies.
Celebrities simply don’t meet with everyone who asks. Celebrities don’t have to give free initial consultations.
The salesman didn’t get that. In that sense Perry’s $1200 lunch date is nothing new. That fact transcends i-net business vs. traditional business culture.
The clamoring of a bunch of nobodies for a lunch meeting with Perry sounds like supplicants desiring an anointing.
No free anointings from Perry.
I am a realist. I consider it HIGHLY unlikely that in 1 hour Perry, or anyone else, will provide an insight or advice that will advance the person as much as simply working on their business and persisting.
Too much hero worship is going on with the business noobs who desire these anointings.
Bad on Dennis for violating his years of experience and expecting such a small gesture to result in a measurable difference in the business.
In short, the correct answer is – work on and in your business, buy some books, and commit to self learning. It will stick more than expecting instant results.
It’s funny how people continually fail to take into account how things such as travel time, empty meetings etc. are pretty much directly subtracting from your overall salary or wage… everyone just looks at the bottom line without taking all the variables into account.
Hence why I can’t understand why people are willing to commute 1.5 hours each way to work, 5 days a week – that’s 15 hours a week worth of basically “unpaid time” that isn’t reflected in the paycheck!
Full disclosure: I am a writer and I have also worked for years as a consultant.
I fully “get” that Perry must defend the value of his time by not doling out significant consulting for free – it’s not fair to paying clients and being open to free consultations erodes your bargaining position. Perhaps the gentleman Dennis who is quoted in this post comes from a different industry or business context and doesn’t get that either.
On the other hand – attorneys (a hated occupation) and doctors almost always provide free initial consultations.
I see a few other interesting takeaways here.
1) There is an “old school” business and sales culture that existed right up until the start of e-commerce, and which is alive and well in some niches. This consists of business relations based upon personal networks, the use of dedicated sales people in outside sales roles, cold calling (yes, and it’s nothing like clubbing baby seals), in person meetings, and direct mail. Think of how they conduct business on “Mad Men” (minus the highly entertaining immorality), or any 1960s era TV show that portrayed salespeople and businessmen, and that’s exactly what I am talking about.
Then, there is the post-internet business culture, characterized by very fluid virtual relationships, and something called social media that ties it all together now. Which everyone on a list like this absolutely takes for granted, like the air we breath. To many of these folks, social media is reality, and real life is the pale imitation.
Arrogance and affecting the rock star image today is considered a necessity or nobody will pay attention to you. In that light, Perry sounded too much like everyone else. Even if he’s not like anyone else.
Again, not that Perry says this, but I get a vibe that this “he just doesn’t get my wonderfulness” position is patronizing in that way.
Dennis as I read him probably comes from that older sales culture. To an older guy whose work/social life includes community activities such as Rotary or Lion’s Club, Perry’s rebuff probably sounded absolutely horrible. That’s really the context I took Dennis’s comments in.
In like manner, more traditional business people often don’t know what to make of social media and virtual audiences, and likewise probably come off very ineptly when attempting to understand the social expectations that exist today.
That doesn’t mean they’re idiots. That means that most internet and social media heads (I mean really young “startup types” weaned on the internet) are profoundly ignorant about the older culture. That also means that real experts and real consultants (like Perry) should work that much harder to reach out to the traditional types. And not be patronizing about it.
2) Perry either walked right into this conflict by awkwardly demurring on a series of “lunch dates”. Or he is purposefully using the anecdote as a further testament to his greatness and awesomeness.
My point is that Perry could have completely avoided the venality of the paid lunch date by stating categorically that he does not do lunches unless they are 100% social. Which precludes lunch with anyone that he does not already know who really needs his advice and who is attempting to schedule a lunch date to pick Perry’s brains.
I rather think that Perry added personal drama to this situation simply to further the narrative of his awesomeness. By “charging” for one hour what many people earn in one month, he advances that narrative.
Next time just say no. It’s not available at any cost. Your lunches are for you and friends, period. Unless you want to shock and p*** off people.
3) When you were asked by the stream of acolytes for lunch dates, why did you not just change the conversation? I doubt you get takers for $1200 lunches. It’s not an offer most people will take seriously. Just tell them to contact your business office to set up an appointment. And again, this mostly seems to be about maintaining a certain narrative, not defending your business position. Defense is what all of us lowlife underlings must do. You apparently float above that. (That’s the vibe I get of a $1200+ quote for a lunch.)
Perhaps I sound like I am swimming in envy, and truthfully, it would be great to be able to blow off dozens of admirers. I’d settle for a modest audience.
I find this post of Perry’s to be self indulgent in the extreme.
Good point, Wes – however, before you make Perry’s “self-indulgence” a negative quality, consider that if you needed to clone Perry’s every quality in order to become as successful as he, would you do it? If you wouldn’t, I’m pretty sure I’ll never be browsing “WesSchwab.com” for strategic business advice. Leaders have to learn to accept that lesser people will constantly be finding fault with them, while those who are bound for the top will focus on emulation.
Way to go Perry!
Time is scarce, exchanging money helps allocate that resource most fairly, and of course allows you to live a life where you can contribute to those who’ll most benefit from your efforts.
I appreciate hearing of the work you’ve done with the late Robin Perry in Mozambique, adopting Zoe, being god parents to a former foster child and much more.
There’s no such thing as a free lunch, even when the lunch is free, it cost somebody something to make it free.
Perry I think you should look into why his letter hit you so hard you took the time to defend yourself & you are still talking about it. If Dennis didn’t say anything true you would have simply let it go.
Hugh you are correct.
I’ve coached hundreds of people; I used to have a program that guaranteed a turnkey business (with growth potential) that immediately generated more in profit than what I charged for my weekly coaching fees.
The client would instantly be making more money than they paid. The problem I found was that even though I gave excellent (but not perfect) advice, and my client’s businesses grew, as soon as I stopped advising them, they failed to identify and take advantage of opportunities; the end result was I was making jobs for them rather than making them into entrepreneurs. I stopped coaching and just focused on my own business.
Perry is in the business of selling advice; that is his product and service.
If you want my opinion, Id be happy to provide over lunch sometime.
There is nothing wrong with a little conflict. In this case, someone took offense to someone they did not understand. It happens all the time. Hopefully, Dennis learned the error of his ways from your reply.
It sounds like you are doing well, Mr. Marshall. That is great. I imagine as you continue your travels, you will run into this issue quite a bit. At least until a journalist writes about it in a fancy magazine for all to read.
Entrepreneurship seems like a lonely road sometimes. Even when you have people working with or for you, you can never be sure they get you.
Thanks for sharing this story, Mr. Marshall. It was definitely a decent morning reminder of the frailty of communication.
Dear Perry:
Just to reiterate, you do give free advice in your columns everyday, so greed is really not the correct thought on the subject. He was just mad that you would not make him feel special. Anyway I have another bone to pick with you. You had a little campaign asking people to give you their number and you would call them withing 48 hours. I never received any call. I understand that your sales campaign was probably very successful and you can’t possibly call everyone. I’m sure you won’t make that same mistake (you are human) again. However I have another topic that is confusing to me and all you on-line marketers. It is called SEO.
SEO would make PT Barnum proud. Lets analyze the facts. Whenever you do a search it will return X amount of answers. The first half of the returned page is already locked up in fees. That leaves only half the page left. Of the half page everyone is reading the same books and doing all the same techniques bestowed upon them. It would appear to me that you have a better chance of winning lottery then having your site come up first. Unless you have some unique offering that has limited competition, you are spending too much time worrying about SEO and not enough time having a real business idea. Even with all your success I still see you begging for business. You even wrote a blog on the subject (gave a user their money back), you attracted desperate people who don’t have any business knowledge but believe doing all the correct props will make them money. Being a CPA I can say most business on the web are not a going concern. They exist for as long as they can write a blog. If the get sick or other circumstances their business plummets. Why because their business is only as good as the mind manipulation techniques they use. They don’t really have any business skills. I would leave you with this question. How many people on the web if there was no web would still have a business? Your business coaching should be advanced business coaching. A person should learn business first before going into business, on the job training will just loose you money and time.
I love reading your articles it gives me a comprehensive view on how much people don’t know. I understand you write to your audience. However these people need to be educated not trained. Training will not help you in business only education, you need to know how to think.
Once again thank you for all your creative writing.
Regards,
Robert
I don’t recall what the 48 hour deal was but I’ll have my staff check on it.
Most web businesses are tiny. Some grow large. Yes when I have time with people I try to give them far more than just techniques. And yes, SEO is tough and I don’t choose to teach it.
Hi Perry, You can please some of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time.
The east way out, thank for the invite, let me check my calendar. No bad vibs there!!!
Rich
Richard Smith: “The key is that free advice/free information has no value and therefore people don’t take action on it because they acknowledge (possibly only on an psychological level) it has no value.”
I have no idea why people say that. Good advice is good advice, whether it’s free or not.
I will grant you that *some* people are more likely to pay attention to advice they pay for, but that’s not a universal trait. It’s more about the attitude of the person involved that whether the advice is free or charged for.
Some of the best advice I’ve had has been free.
I think it is amusing how people say, “you could have handled that with more tact” and even more amused that people don’t have a problem with you giving or not giving free time, but that you didn’t give it to them. As a consultant I also have limited myself. Years ago I would be at client location and after a day of work they would ask me to dinner. Of course, being younger and hungrier I would say yes…only to find myself in a 3 hour dinner-consulting job. I no longer go for dinner with clients.
yep – people think they have a right to decide who I can say yes or no to, but for some reason I don’t.
Hello Perry.
You can certainly include me as one of your eager students and I look forward to all information that comes my way from you. I do, however, believe you could have handled that request for lunch with a bit more tact. I think a simple “thank you, I’m honored you have asked, but I just can’t do that right now” or something to that affect would have been much less arrogant. Personally, I enjoy having lunch with new friends as often as possible. You never know who you might meet, you never know what you might learn and many times, it lands a new client!
*I smile as I think, “this is how I KNOW I’m listening to the right guy.”* Thx Perry ;)
It’s clear over here in the UK that you can give away as much free information as you like, my own work with small and medium sized firms replicates 90% of what is available for free from my emails/websites.
The key is that free advice/free information has no value and therefore people don’t take action on it because they acknowledge (possibly only on an psychological level) it has no value.
You all know that much of what you need to know is at the end of the Google search, but you need to get of your backside and look for it.
The 10% extra I (and my staff) bring to the table costs in excess of £70 per hour (as a minimum) and there is a simple choice to pay it or not. The fact that people do proves they see the value in it. We don’t meet unless there is at least a £1000 on the table.
Perry is entitled to spend lunch with whoever he wants and to put a price on that,
the only equaliser is time and we all need to spend it wisely. For me lunch is about connecting back with myself, taken some time out to enjoy an hour and not have to focus on getting another question answered.
Forget about what Perry or I do with my spare cash, that has nothing to do with any of you. Fact is you make a decision about how much value he or I offer and decide to pay it or not.
None of us or you have any right to moralise about what or when or how.
Yeah of course sometimes people get pissed with my opinion and they have the option to unsubscribe or stop paying for my services at anytime.
Richard
Perry, I like your stuff but I think your reply to Dennis is a bit disingenuous.
There’s no mention in it about the fact that you want to be very rich.
Not that I object to anyone wanting to be very rich. That’s not my point. It’s just that in your ‘justification’ to Dennis you never once mentioned this brutal fact.
Anyone charging $1300/hr – which, as someone mentioned, is as much as some people get in a month – is going to be rich well beyond their basic needs.
You say you give to charity and I believe you (lots of us give to charity) but unless you’re giving a very large proportion of your $1300/hr to charity (and if you are I apologise and retract my criticism) the remainder after your charitable donations and basic living needs are taken out is money to make you very rich.
As I said, this in itself is fine, except that you also mention the greater need of “starving Africans” over “well-fed Americans” but (and again if you’re giving most of your money away I apologise) it seems their need isn’t so great that an American such as yourself shouldn’t be extremely well-fed.
See what I mean? There’s a touch of hypocrisy in the reply to gave to Dennis. It’s as if starving Africans are more important than well-fed Americans as long as the particular well-fed American in question isn’t you.
I’m reasonably well-fed myself. Sure, I give to charity, but there’s still a lot of money left over after my basic needs are accounted for. I spend that on houses, cars, televisions, entertainment and all manner of stuff that is way less important than starving Africans. I think that’s wrong but I can’t seem to give up all those luxuries in favour of the less fortunate. I’m sure I should and it does sometimes give me doubts about the strength of my morals. I think that’s the same as most of us. What I wouldn’t do though is try to justify charging $1300/hr as being of benefit to starving Africans unless I was giving about $1200 of that directly to them (and virtually every Westerner could live very well on the remaining $100/hr x 8 hrs/day x 5 (working) days/week x 52 weeks = $208,000/yr).
I stress again: there’s nothing wrong with anyone being rich, but at least call it like it is eh?
Hugh,
Great observation. So let’s look at this a little more closely. Because this really gets down to the question “Do you love your neighbor as yourself?” It also gets down to the question of: “Whose money is it anyway?”
Let’s start with “Whose money is it anyway?” And let’s use the “Ayn Rand Atlas Shrugged” point of view.
From that point of view nobody has any business expecting me to do anything for free, ever. But as a Christian I believe I’m my brother’s keeper and I reject Ayn Rand’s exaltation of self and her disdain for charity.
So now let’s look at “I’m my brother’s keeper.”
You’re right, if the guy in Africa trumps everyone else, cuz he’s the poorest, then you can argue that I should live at not-much-above-his-level-of-poverty, and give everything that’s left over to poor people. Then I can reject everyone else’s pleas with impunity.
But since I pay myself a decent salary and have a middle class lifestyle, clearly at some level I’ve decided to treat myself and my family much better than Africans.
Does that therefore mean that everyone below my standard of living is entitled to free pieces of my time?
I can do three things:
1) Refuse to give anyone any more money and keep what I’ve got
2) Lower my standard of living and give more money to poor people
3) Lower my standard of living and give more time to middle class Americans
At some point we all usually choose #1. But I still insist that whenever I do choose to lower my standard of living, option #2 is still more responsible than option #3. In my book, the poor are first in line.
Also: if I do take option #3, better to give my time to a person who will be giving money to poor people when they do become successful, as opposed to giving my time to people who are going to keep everything for themselves.
P.S.: By the way, people like me who sell time on an hourly basis are rarely able to bill all of our 40 hours per week. Nor do we get to pocket everything that comes in. In my case there is a significant amount of infrastructure, marketing expense and support staff. If I give somebody a free hour, it’s costing me a large portion of my hourly rate to indulge them in that luxury. Business people seeking advice who do not understand that, need to learn more about business before I consider time spent with them to be a good investment.
Okay Perry, points taken. I’d like to be clear that I wasn’t criticising you in any sort of judgemental sense about morals, how you live your life etc. I’d have to live my own far better before I would feel I could do that with any justification! I just didn’t feel the ‘starving African’ justification you gave fitted the ‘no free lunch’ defence, although when you said “But since I pay myself a decent salary and have a middle class lifestyle, clearly at some level I’ve decided to treat myself and my family much better than Africans” in your reply to me, it somehow rings a lot less ‘holier than thou’ and much more realistic. Perhaps I took the context of your reply to Dennis too literally (if so, I apologise).
In terms of charging for time etc., yes, understood. I also charge for time and understand about the overheads and such – they can take a significant chunk of it.
There are some interesting philosophical points raised by both of us here, although I don’t think a marketing site is the place to pursue them!
Hugh,
These are great questions. I think all of us ought to be paying attention to the philosophical parts of how we live our lives. In church you think about these things one day a week but an awful lot of people think that’s irrelevant. So if we don’t discuss this on a marketing site… where are we going to discuss it? Glad we can have discussions like this here.
1) If you want to maximize profit without concern for others, then charging the most you can positions you as a leading expert.
2) If you want to maximize the benefit to humanity, and you have something useful, then you should give it away and help people implement it.
Since the vast majority of products and services are not useful and in fact harmful, most people should play the percentages and maximally charge for any air coming out of their body from either end.
Agree with you a 100% Perry…now this brings me to what for me, has been tricky question: are there situations where it’s good bussiness to accept the “free” lunch, or do the free confernece, or what ever?
First of all if you do free lunches and there’s no value to you coming from the other person then you ought to have a good reason to do so. Friends, charity, stuff like that. From a purely business standpoint then the person you’re having lunch with should be providing value back to you.
Perry, charge what you are worth, and never look back.
I am an expert on roof cleaning, that I do here in Tampa.
I get guys from all over the USA wanting to “pick my brain” for free.
They tell me since they are not here in Tampa, they are non competitive, and think I should give away my hard earned roof cleaning secrets for free.
They get mad when they hear the dial tone, but I don’t care.
My time is valuable, and so is yours Perry.
It is Perrys decision how much he charges. If he is in a position where people are paying him over $700 for an hours advice good luck to him. There are many bitter people in this world and the truly succesful have to put a lot of effort into their work to achieve everything of their dreams. The bitter people always want a bite for free. PErsonally if I ever get to Perrys position and earn $700 an hour I wouldnt give advice for free. You can take my word on that
My 2c worth …
“You cant please everyone all the time.”
“Judge not …”
I am about to ask a guru of mine out to dinner and I’m wondering what I’ll say if he wants me to pay him his hourly rate …
Peace
Harley M Storey
F1400 an hour! That’s more than I make in a month!
Wow…amazing some of the responses to this article! Reading through some of them….you just want to give somebody a smack if they were in person. If you don’t have anything good or constructive to say…then shut the f*** up.
I’m not going to say much on this article as it isn’t productive, so any of you opinionated loud mouth people who have left replies beating this guy up….remember that’s your opinion….AND NO ONE WANTS TO HEAR IT! Mumble to yourself and go bark at the moon!
If you need help on keeping a positive mental attitude….come and see us a http://www.fitnesshealthandmind.com and look at the world with the cup half full! Life really is just too short to live any other way!
Heard after a recent sales meeting:
“… Are you free for lunch?…”
“No, but I’m inexpensive”
Well going to lunch with some one for money is defiantly something new, that I have not heard of. I think it is ok to charge money for seminars or some information like that, but for lunch it’s kind of not right. He could have said something like – “I’m sorry, I can’t do lunch, but I would be glad to give you an hour consultation for $700”.
I have found that just about every one of us, especially those who are the most broke[n], suffer in one form or another from greediness.
The real definition of GREED is…
G.etting
R.ewards by
E.ngaging in
E.mpty
D.eeds
…in other words, wanting to get something for nothing.
What I see on your site, Perry is GRACE…
G.iving
R.ewards in
A.dvance of a
C.onscientious
E.xchange
…sowing bountifully before reaping the fruit of your labor (of love).
The free content on your site graciously provides so much marketing inspiration, motivation and education.
Giving away your products and services would be just plain evil. It not only feeds ugly GREED, but it also tramples on the beauty of GRACE.
Wow Collette, that’s beautiful. Thank you.
I need to do this more.
I’m refocusing on instead of giving really good FREE content out on my blog, to continue to keep some of it for my clients and then once new clients sign up, BAM! there is some bonus goodness for them.
Thanks for the permission!
The first career I trained for–complete with college graduation and practical experience–failed to materialize as far as monetary compensation. I didn’t spend years ‘getting there’ to be a volunteer. They have lots of other people who are so inclined, and I bless them for their efforts. However, that was supposed to be my bread and butter career. After spending far too long waiting for a position to open up for me (there were lots of paid positions for those with the right gender and pedigree) I realized it was a waste of time.
Then I started reading posts like this and following other dreams. So far it’s not a living wage but there’s been a lot more personal and spiritual growth. I have three novels out and the next step is screenplay writing. I wanted to take a film course and the next thing you know, one’s available at the local college–even though they haven’t had it for a few years.
There are some people who wonder why I’m not still doing free work in my first ‘calling’ but without the advanced, paid position, there’s nothing more I can do for them. It would be like an architect playing in a sandbox. Fun? Maybe. But pointless for me.
The guy’s spelling and grammar says much about his likelihood of success….
Ian
Life works on so much more than one level. If you refuse to help, you will not be helped when you really need it. Try it out. What goes around comes around, that’s the law of Karma they say.
Hey Perry,
I wanted to pick your brain and take you out to lunch, when is good for you?
Best,
Colin
PS- lol.
Having read a few books it seems that a lot of advice centres around valuing your own time as an entrepeneur. We often feel treated when someone spends a bit of money on us but if you equate that back to the rate you would invoice for your time you real;ise you have gone on the cheap.
there is no “correct” answer on this one obviously. That is why this discussion keeps going on. So take whatever position makes you happy.
I cannot believe that you still get comments on this subject after all this time. Looks like you have started something emotional here and got enough feedback to write a book. Guess there is also a marketing lesson in all this, hope I will figure it out soon :-)