Recently I spoke at an event where numerous people asked me to meet with them, have lunch, etc. I responded: Sorry, no free lunch meetings – if you want to meet with me you need to pay my hourly fee.
I mentioned this in an email and got this reply from Dennis:
Perry
I love your stuff, you are obviously a very talented online marketer. In addition I bet your a good person, I don’t know but I get the feeling you are. However one thing really bothered me that you said in your newsletter dated Tuesday October 28th.
As far as I can deduct you where part of a program that went late into the night that people paid for and after it was over several people wanted to take you to lunch etc, to pick your brain. You response was sure, just pay me my hourly rate. Now I’m all for people getting paid for there time, God knows if you say high to a lawyer your going to get a bill. Wlth that in mind there is such a thing as going to far. It’s called GREED. It’s what the me generation did to this countries economy today. It’s the reason our economy is in such a mess.
I have been here for 58 years and have met many successful people, everyone of these people that I have asked to take to lunch and chat never charged me a dime. And myself being a very successful sales person earning over $100 K per year since 1974 have always given freely to others who asked. My opinion regaring your reponse to a request to do lunch was not being a smart business person, it was greed with a capital G. Come on, lets get real here if this kind of greed does not stop this country is headed for the dumpster.
Can you imagagine having to pay everyone who you asked for advice ? Why not put a hold on the greed and give a little back without getting paid for it. Even the blood sucking lawyers do probono work, even high priced doctors volunteer there skill to help people who can’t afford medical care. Even old John D Rockefeller realised his greed and started giving his money away. Then theres Perry Marshall he won’t go to lunch with eager students and share his knowledge without getting paid. You can rationalize all you want, but your response was arrogant and greedy. Let me summarise, what you did was Bull Shit.
Dennis
This was my reply to Dennis:
Dennis,
Thanks for your note and I can appreciate how my comment made you feel. Yes if someone told me 20 years ago I’d be charging people $700 for lunch and turning away people asking for help, I might have felt the same way as you. As you wrote your email I think you felt more and more angry about it all the time.
My wife read your email and said, “Perry, this guy apparently doesn’t know how many people want to take you to lunch.”
Dennis, I have over 100,000 people on my email list. You have no idea how many people email my office and ask questions – hundreds and hundreds every month. I could EASILY spend all day dispensing free advice. The demand for it it ENDLESS. I could spend every single breakfast, lunch and dinner time slot dispensing free advice and the line would never stop.
At the meeting, had I responded to all those requests I would’ve been out to lunch every day this week dispensing free advice. Remember: I’m not a salesman. I’m a consultant. Advice, not widgets, is what I sell. When you were a salesman you didn’t give away your goods for free and you didn’t feel guilty if they expected you to and you wouldn’t feel guilty for saying no.
There are several reasons why I don’t dispense free advice:
-It would be unfair to those who pay for it, and there are many who do
-People almost NEVER act on free advice, especially if it requires them to do something uncomfortable – so what’s the point in dispensing it?
-If people want free information there are hundreds of pages of free articles and MP3’s on my website and it’s good stuff
-If I gave away my knowledge I would not be able to be generous to those who truly are in need.
You accuse me of being greedy and not being generous. You do not know that. You do not know me at all. You have no business making such judgments. You do not know how many people and/or organizations I DO give free advice to. You do not know who or what I give my money to and it’s none of your business anyway.
Just know this: If I gave away free advice I would have no money to give to AIDS orphans in Africa.
So given that I have people lined up to pay me money (for example if you want a 1 day consultation it has to be booked 1-3 months in advance; phone consults are booked 2-4 weeks in advance) why should I allow people to cut in line and pay nothing?
Would that be right?
Finally, most of the questions people would ask me are already answered on my website or in my products. Most of the business ideas people pitch me with are a waste of time. People who have not read my books or website first usually wouldn’t understand the answer if I gave it to them.
I am known all around the world for my expertise and my time is valuable. I am a STEWARD of my time and I am responsible before God for how I use it. To give it away indiscriminately would be irresponsible and wasteful.
I will give my time to people who earn it and that is why I am then able to be generous with people who need it. Hungry children in Africa need help more than well-fed Americans who are trying to solve their business problems. If they want free advice, they can ask someone else.
When people pay for my time, they get value. In life you usually get what you pay for, and when you pay me $725 an hour [note: my rate has risen since this was written, it is now $4,000 per hour] you get your money’s worth. My job is to deliver that value and make sure that knowledge is put to use for maximal effect to ALL involved – my customers, myself, and the causes that are dear to my heart.
Sincerely,
Perry Marshall
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About the Author
Perry Marshall has launched two revolutions in sales and marketing. In Pay-Per-Click advertising, he pioneered best practices and wrote the world's best selling book on Google advertising. And he's driven the 80/20 Principle deeper than any other author, creating a new movement in business.
He is referenced across the Internet and by Harvard Business Review, The New York Times, INC and Forbes Magazine.
421 Comments on “Perry’s Greed”
i read your mail and both of you are right at your position and you have to do what you think!
Subject matter expertise is something of value – those wishing to profit from another mans years of experience should expect to compensate him for it.
Greedy? It’s called supply and demand. Simple. Greed is when you try and get more than the market can bear. This is not a case of greed.
Hi Perry,
I’ve got to say I agree. I grew up with my dad as the local doctor in town – he couldn’t go into the supermarket without people popping up to ask him ‘just a few questions’ about their sore back/shoulder/etc.
I think respect and friendship go hand in hand. If it’s lunch, it should be just a friendly lunch – no advice asked or given. If it’s business, by all means, get people to pay your hourly rate and make it business.
Good for you for setting clear lines – you give away a ton of excellent advice for free already.
Hi totally agree. I think that you are dead-on with your assumptions about this topic. Charging what you are worth is what makes the world go around. Enough said. Done.
Pay for Perry’s time
record the experience to make a product
charge people $97 for the video
Personally, I would have gone to dinner with him. The flip-side is, I am not an information marketer. If I were actively selling information of the type he was attempting to get with the cost of a lunch, AND my rates were usually higher than the amount of food I was likely to eat, I would have said no, as well.
Or if the information he was seeking was of a life changing nature (note: not business changing nature) such as sharing my experience in what helped my mother when she was dieing of cancer to help someone in his family who might be dieing of cancer, I (and I am sure Perry) would go eat with him, as well.
The reason I find this thread so fascinating is that everyone that has had any previous contact in any more than a fleeting passing by with Perry, would find him being called “Greedy with a capital ‘G'” just a matter of the original poster not knowing him very well.
It is good to see those who do know him stand up for him. It is sad that many taking an opposing view will never get the chance to know him well. I sometimes measure success by the people I know. (An old boss once said that no one knew the real measure of success so he figured it might as well be money. He then proceeded to go out and make a lot of it. (He was not a happy person, and it was obvious to every one that knew him.) On the other hand, I have always measured success differently at different times, but how much money I had or was making was never one of my rulers. from what little I know of Perry, I doubt he uses money as a ruler often; though when one is able to make a lot of money doing something they love, it is hard to not use it as a measuring stick occasionally.)
How do you measure success?
Dennis is here to defend himself. You can see what he said to all of this, in one of the posts.
Perry
Wow, we have a bunch of people trashing Dennis’ spelling when the poor guy isn’t here to defend himself. I’m embarrassed for half of the people posting in this gush fest because although there are a lot of good comments, they are lost in the amount of pure rubbish.
Perry’s response here was enough for me to reconsider buying anything he offers and although his newsletter is great, I do find a lot of self-promotion inside.
Dennis and the rest of your paying customers deserved more respect. Sometimes people just want to hang out. I’m disappointed in both your response and the way that you posted this information publicly.
You are number 1 in your field and what you said was all true because you know every thing except for one thing… Seperating the noobs from the mature, clearly that guy is new to the industry and don’t know what’s his talking about.
Howard Roark Laughed.
@Norm:
How can this post have been a waste of *your* time?
Nobody has forced you to read it with putting a gun to your head.
So, it was your own decision to read it. So it has been *you* who has wasted your own time.
I think it is time that you start taking responsibility for your own actions.
This will make a huge, positive difference to your life.
Chris
Perry,
I’m 76 now and I’ve been working for 50 years, always for self-satisfaction, and money for self-sufficiency. I’ve never been eager to accumulate money, I wanted only to have enough for my purpose in life and I’ve advised others how to manage their business to make money, but never for granted, never free. They paid for my lunch and besides, they were paying my fee to take care of my family, to enjoy holidays, and to have a satisfactory good living, me, my wife and children.
Honestly, this post was a waste of MY time. And why do all of these people feel so strongly either way about your communication with this person that they feel compelled to over analyze it either way? PS: at $700 an hour, why haven’t you solved aids and provided the orphans with parents?
I’m 74 and regretting that in my 50 some years of business, I never learned the true value of my knowledge and expertise. I was always an “easy mark” for people who “just wanted a little help” and I’m now paying for it dearly in retirement.
And it doesn’t just affect my lifestyle…it affects that of my wife and the family members I’d love to be able to assist financially from time to time…but can do so in only a very limited way. I agree with your position on this…Cheers.
Perry, it is entirely up to you to do whatever you want with your time. Charge for it, give it free, slope off, do the things that you have to do for family, friends, clients, whatever. But, I guess you know that well anyway.
As an ex-sales guy I guess the key to closing the deal (to get your time) was to make it more interesting for you. Now if a guy came up to you and wanted to discuss a business proposition (it could still of been his business you were discussing) and at the same time wanted to take you to lunch at your favourite restaurant. Now that would have been a whole lot more tempting now, wouldn’t it? Unless you have (really) expensive taste it would have cost the guy less, maybe got him a business partner and a nice meal too.
Win win?
All the best to you Perry.
Your minutes are seeds.
Where you plant your seeds will determine the quality and quantity of the harvest.
Some types of ground will produce poorly:
people in full time jobs
people looking for a little extra
people not open to learning
people that don’t take action
people wanting to replace their job
people that aren’t smart enough
irrational or unreasonable people
older people (based on performance)
younger people (based on experience and insight)
people without skills
people with ineffective mindsets
non objective people
people that make bad decisions
people unwilling to spend money or time
Some types of ground will yield more:
smart people
action taking people
people that make good decisions
people that can recognize when they are wrong and then change to match reality
people that can recognize value based on experience and judgment
people with skills directly related to implementation
for Perry to spend time planting seeds in dry sandy ground would be a waste.
You will be rewarded based on 2 things:
1) The problem you solve
solve expensive problems
are people looking for your solution
how much are they willing to pay
etc.
2) Who you solve it for
solve the problems of people willing to spend money
You are assuming that he does not do pro bono work
right now … as for the other guru’s , have you ever asked them what they are doing ?
And even if they or Perry don’t do pro bono, who are you to decide what it is they should be doing with their time ?
Like the man says, he has books available … let them read them, and read his web site. I get free info from Perry all the time.
Most folks just are too damn lazy to really
dig in and get it done.
Peace Out …
Steve
Folks!! Give it up. Everyone, including Perry, should just try and be a little more polite. It is the season; it is always the season.
PS Anyone want to invite me for lunch?
PPS When clients cannot afford my rate I often tell them that I work for food….
Right on Perry!, you cant please em all. Your time is your widget and people cant expect you to give it away free.
Perry,
You are my favorite online marketer, but I have to admit your response made you sound like a jerk. It really seems to be a no win situation for you. I understand your position. No one would expect me to give away the widgets I sell for free, so why should you be expected to give away the advice you sell for free.
Maybe you could have just mentioned you already had lunch plans?
or
Why not just sell a special VIP seminar ticket that includes lunch with Perry? This way everyone knows at the beginning that lunch is only for those who paid, and no one has to be embarrassed by you making them feel like scum.
Perry,
I read through the first 10 or 12 responses, then I saw the scroll bar on the right had barely budged off the top right corner…this page was longer than a sales letter!
So I scrolled to the bottom just to say “Bravo, Perry!” and thanks for allowing me to leave the link to my URL on this great page that many people, including Google, will read or spider.
Anyone who gets your emails know you give away LOTS of extremely relevant, useful and revenue-generating material. No free lunch.
Hi Perry,
Reading over this post for the first time. It was actually brought to my attention a few days ago in another forum from another angry guy.
Now that I know the full story, i know exactly how you’ve been left feeling.
You had already put out your best value and advice in your original talk–and these people were asking for MORE for free.
You were tired, you had better things to do with your time, and when you’re done working, you want the freedom to stop. You were just stating that if they wanted you to keep working, you wanted to be “on the clock” so to speak.
I would have declined the invitation too. Good work Perry.
Jim Yaghi
I don’t get why a bunch of sycophants have to heap crap on this Dennis guy… He didn’t expect this to become public, you guys were not there.
Where I grew up, if one person says a thing to another, thinking it’s between them, it should stay between them unless both are cool with it becoming public.
From the language used in most posts here, I’d suspect that a great many people here “shoot from the hip” with what they say… so I’m sure each and every one of you has said something to someone somewhere that the rest of the tribe here would trash. Grow up.
At the end of the day, we surround ourselves with the kind of people we are.
Frankly I’m delighted to not have anything to do with most of the posters on here.
Michael
Is Dennis the next Joe The Plumber?
A guy who came out of nowhere to become a pseudocelebrity?
Hey Dennis. When is your book coming out?
I am so tired of this topic…
Wow, a lot of people don’t “get it”.
It’s time management 101 here. He makes a living by charging for his time/wisdom/advice.
You wouldn’t work for free, so why expect Perry to? Oh that’s right, because it would benefit YOU and help YOU out. Disregard the fact that it is taking away time from Perry. You know, that ONE thing in life you never get back.
Besides, it’s not like Perry never gives away free advice.
Whatever, selfishness is at play here from the complainers.
This debate has been hugely interesting for me to read. I am in the middle of promoting my first business coaching program and it has made me really reflect on the filters people use in relation to money and value; the balance between generosity and profitability; and openness to feedback.
From a leadership perspective (my bread and butter) one of the challenges is that as we become more and more senior in our organization or community we are less likely to receive good feedback.
If Perry is to continue to develop and grow and as a leader, contrary feedback is critical (as is self-awareness that he has a few “hot buttons” and what that might mean for how he approaches realizing his vision).
Without knowing my hot buttons, I am more likely to have a knee jerk response rather than paying adequate attention to what it might teach me.
From a personal perspective, this has blog post has tipped me over the line into becoming one of Perry’s customers (after receiving stuff for free for a couple of years). Why? Not because I strongly agree with his view but because I have at last seen a bit of the passion that goes with the expertise and value.
First, whether you agree with him or not, Dennis get’s an “atta-boy” from me for just responding to this post with all that was said. I think most would turn tail and run.
That being said, Dennis, I agree with Tom Hoobyar. The tone of your letter does not match the tone of your explanation of it. I can appreciate that you had emotion the first time.
But, if you really mean to say “it would be a great thing if once in a while . . . period.”
Then there is much in that letter that needs to be recanted (“You can rationalize all you want, but your response was arrogant and greedy. Let me summarise (sic), what you did was Bull Shit.”), for starters.
If you are not willing to apologize for the provocative tone of your initial letter, than this explanation comes off as rationalization and, sadly, disingenuous.
If saving face is more important than making amends, I guess at the very least you can take comfort for your part in starting a valuable and educational discussion.
Hi Dennis,
I just couldn’t leave your comment alone. I agree with your sentiment that it “would be a great thing if Perry and these other gurus did some pro bono work”. I count many of the “gurus” as personal friends, and I have never met a more generous bunch of hard working people.
By now, if you’ve read all the other comments from Perry’s friends and customers, you know that he also does a lot of pro bono work. Including even staying late the night of that conference. Incidently, did you bother to stay?
Frankly, if the email posted from you here is accurate, you might consider offering Perry an apology for your judgmental letter. You must feel by now that it was at least rash, if not downright offensive.
Regards,
Tom Hoobyar
This is Dennis I am the one who wrote about Greed.
My point is this, of course Perry has a right to charge for everything he does, that was not my point, my point was it would be a great thing if once in a while Perry and these other gurus did some pro bono work, period
A colleague and friend, Adam Kreitman of Words That Click, pointed me to this debate and asked me what I thought, because he knows my policy is to meet for an hour with anyone, anywhere, any time for any reason and he was curious about my take.
About Dennis’ position that Perry should give his time free. Simply put, that’s not your decision to make — it’s Perry’s. Of course the nice thing about your unsolicited advice is that it cost Perry absolutely nothing to ignore it. And, by the way, just because the guy decided in this instance not to give, that doesn’t mean he’s a greedy bastard. Stop jumping to garbage conclusions just because you’re mad you weren’t able to take some of his time and advice for yourself.
About Perry’s position on getting paid for his time and advice. In the book “The Go-Giver,” by Bob Burg and John David Mann, the second law of stratospheric success is “Your income is determined by how many people you serve and how well you serve them.”
By example, a life coach charging $200 an hour and booked solid can make about $400,000 a year. She delivers huge value to each individual client, but hits her income wall at 2,000 hours and whatever the market will bear for a maximum hourly rate.
Oprah Winfrey, on the other hand, delivers life advice tidbits to millions of people each week on TV. No one would ever say Oprah’s value is anywhere near the value of a dedicated life coach, yet she’s the bazzilionaire, because while she’s serving people only slightly, she’s serving millions instead of dozens.
If Perry has people lined up and waiting to pay $750 an hour for his personal time, it seems to me he has an opportunity to create a mass delivery method — a membership or something — that will allow him to serve tidbits to hundreds of thousands. Yes, the value will be less than Perry in person, but as long as he delivers more value than he takes in payment — another law in “The Go-Giver” — everyone wins.
What was it I said about unsolicited advice?
Anyway, I applaud Perry for making his decision, voicing it to the world in a confidently arrogant manner and not giving a hoot that 10 percent of those who hear it will vilify him for his thinking.
Fear not the reprisal of others lest you deprive the world of your thoughts.
Think away, Perry!
Gill Wagner
Honest Selling
Next time you find yourself in the far north of Canada, how about if I take you for a coffee? Two stipulations: call ahead & no talk about promotion. Just a chance to unwind and get out of the cold. After all, everyone needs some downtime.
Perry:
Great way to stir the controversy pot (tremendous free gift in that alone)! Like a page from the DK play book. You are a master of the content mix, giving away enough to help people make some money to afford to spend some 1-1 time with you. Congrats on what you’ve accomplished.
You do give away so much free stuff, the problem is, like the Bible, you need to learn to interpret it and find the personal take-aways. Appears Dennis has a ways to go in that department, otherwise he wouldn’t have commented as he did.
I’ll have to remember your responses for the future, because they were spot on. Thanks for making us think, which is something so few people really want to do.
Hi Perry, I think you were great in your response to that man. It seemed to me that, he was in a little “greed of wanting something freee.” I don’t always like to pay for things that could be given, and I don’t always like to do the dishes after a good meal…te he, you all know that one, and if not you’re missing something.
The point is, is that we all need to give, and there is no problem with giving Perry some fees for your freedom. Money is a powerful tool that can do that if it is used right.
So blah, for all those that refused to graciously put out, for all they have been given :)
Smiles Ya’ll
I think your critic is mixing greed with arrogance. You should not say that you would have lunch with someone if they paid you $725. All you had to say was no thank you….I can’t…. as I have plans.
There….now I’m a critic.
hi perry-
I already commented on the password protected area. Just wanted to say I really like the blog, and new homepage design. Very slick. Bet you’ll get more organic traffic this way.
adam
Perry,
You present yourself as a Godly man, so I feel open to express to you one thing that I’ve learned over the years: You can’t outgive God. Perhaps you and Dennis both would learn something from reading Being a Sharefish in a Selfish World.
I think most of you are missing the point completely. It has nothing to do with ‘greed’ or how much of Marshall’s time he actually donates, and so on.
It’s business, and the more Perry Marshall can charge, the more you can charge.
I don’t know Perry Marshall; I ‘met’ him through his book. No doubt, he knows his business inside and out.
But in addition to knowing his business, he got lucky (Let’s not forget, luck is the biggest success factor in any endeavor). Maybe he was in the right place at the right time, maybe he knew the right people, maybe he knew the right buttons to push. Who knows? But in the process, he got ‘famous’.
Regardless, he knew that one of the sure paths to failure is to diminish the value of what he does – by giving it away.
And that’s the key: perceived/enhance-diminished value.
Each of you wants to earn by selling what you ‘know’ by selling your ‘good ideas’. Sorry to break this to you, but a good idea is worthless. Only execution adds value.
So let Perry Marshall charge and earn all that he can. Because for every dollar more he can charge, that’s one dollar more I can charge.
Here’s the formula:
“Smart” “famous” Perry Marshall (rightly or wrongly, who cares?) charges $750 an hour.
That allows someone just as “smart” but not as famous to charge $500 an hour.
Which allows someone of lesser stature to charge $250 an hour.
I have been producing traditional advertising for thirty years and I am as good as anyone alive. Believe me when I say, that — in the eyes of most companies — your competition is not Perry Marshall charging high rates; but recent college graduates thrilled to receive 18 bucks an hour.
Quit complaining. Quit being jealous of someone doing better than you. Quit confusing making the world a better place with earning a living. They rarely overlap. Earn first, give second. It doesn’t work the other way around.
Have no doubt, few people are going to pay you more than you are worth – which is what they THINK you are worth.
The more Perry Marshall charges (or the more people think he charges) the more everyone else can earn.
I think he should increase his rates; I need to earn more.
Bill Cruse
Respective to Michael Webb’s comments on Dan Kennedy I have to emphasize that Dan Kennedy does teach the importance of the “living up to it” part.
I regularly read his Insider’s Circle newsletter and each and every issue contains both
* examples of businesses who fail in this respect and why this is bad for them,
* examples of businesses do well in this respect and why this makes them successful.
I guess that the “living up to it” part ist just not so popular in the general audience because it means “hard work”. So Dan’s statements about “living up to it” are maybe unconsciously filtered out by many listeners.
Also, for Dan’s teaching about “living up to it”, I suggest his new book “No B.S. marketing to the affluent”.
***
Also, I think that many direct marketing teachers assume that their students already have great products and services and that they know how to treat their customers respectfully.
They base their teaching on the assumption that the marketing is the only part which needs a fix in their student’s businesses.
Maybe Dan Kennedy has done it that onesided way many years in the past, too. I cannot tell.
Nowadays he teaches a lot about overall business aspects, very much including the “living up to it” part.
Perry,
I do agree with Steven. It would have been nice to just say ‘No thanks’ and probably relate an excuse just to turn Dennis down politely.
And if he does become persistent then maybe you can tell him the truth as per your reply to Dennis.
I guess his opinion or his judgment on you was probably base on how he took to your reply when he invited your for lunch.
Would he have judge you differently if you had turn him down politely?
Well, I won’t know cause I wasn’t there to know if either he or you have approach each other in an impolite manner.
Kevin,
> Respective to MW’s post, interesting that you are negative
> towards Halbert, Kennedy and Ringer; and define arrogance
> relative to Perry when you apparently utilize the formers’
> teachings on your own website — specifically billing yourself
> as “the foremost expert on sales process improvement”
> — sorry, never heard of you before now, but will seek to learn
> from your expertise in the future. Perhaps Perry is not alone
> by your and the dictionary’s defined parameters…?
You are correct in your observations of Perry, Kevin. As far as what I said about Halbert, Kennedy, and Ringer, I didn’t mean to single out Perry, they all use public statements of superiority. And you are right, I do as well.
There is a critical distinction everyone needs to make however.
Presenting yourself as superior is not the same thing as being arrogant. Arrogance is only when you act as though more important than you are.
Claims of superiority have dramatic effects – either positive or negative. (The reason this post has such attention is that it deals with BOTH of these effects simultaneously.)
The positive effect:
People need to know the truth of someone’s superior positioning. They need to know what they can and should believe. Halbert, Kennedy, and Ringer (and Marshall as well) all point out the importance of having evidence of one’s claims. Obviously, achieving recognition as the superior one brings out the desire to buy in some members of the audience. People untrained in direct response marketing are generally unaware of how critical it is to educate the audience of their superiority, or of how to go about doing it.
The negative side:
Clumsy superiority claims can make others feel subservient or inferior (thus the suspicion of arrogance). It can make some in the audience wary and wonder if the speaker is trying to take advantage. (Further, if you think the person hasn’t treated you fairly in the past that feeling is aggravated. I admit that was my feeling, which Perry has since corrected for me by the way, and which I appreciate. I should have gone to him directly instead of on this forum, so for that I apologize.)
“Exaggerating one’s worth or importance,” is the textbook way of “bootstrapping” yourself into the position you aspire to. If you can live up to your own claims, it works brilliantly.
It isn’t the claim of superiority that is the problem. It is the “not living up to it” part that backfires (you appear arrogant, or worse).
Unfortunately, most direct response thought leaders have emphasized that the road to success is any kind of statement you can make the audience believe. They have de-emphasized the living up to it part. For instance, I’ve been in the audience as Kennedy taught people how to create manipulative statements that leverage their audience’s emotions, and rely on their ignorance or laziness or inability to think critically. He makes no bones about criticizing people who are sticklers about honesty. His controversial reputation is echoed in some of the comments on this thread.
I suppose if your audience is ignorant, lazy, and unable to think critically, you might not have much choice about what you have to do to influence them. However, some audiences are more educated, pro-active, and more able to think for themselves.
It is difficult to find many examples of good direct response marketing in this arena. Perry has many of those good examples, which accounts for much of his popularity.
As for my claim that I’m “the foremost expert on sales process improvement,” I stick by it. “Process Improvement” has a specific meaning in the B2B world: applying the scientific method (TQM, 6?, lean, Kaizen, etc.) I have written the most influential and widely read materials on that subject – at least as far as sales and marketing goes.
It is still a small niche, but growing.
Perry,
This very interesting discussion opens an interesting question for me:
Do people who are in principle willing to pay the hourly fee ask you to invite you to lunch for picking your brain like the people on this seminar or do they rather ask something like:
“Perry, I know you have a long waiting list for payed consultations.
But, since you are here, and because it is lunchtime, would you be interested to give me a payed consultation right now, over lunch? Of course I’ll pay the lunch in addition to your fee.”
If the former is true, then it makes sense to make an offer for the payed consultation like you did.
If the latter is true, then it is probably easier to simply say “no” to people who you know will not buy anyways instead of making an offer to them.
It’s like people entering some query into Google will never buy anything while people entering another query into Google will buy quite frequently.
You don’t bid on keywords which don’t bring sales.
You just say no.
(to avoid a cost which will never result in a benefit.)
So with Google Adwords we have learned that there is often a strong correlation between what people ask and whether they are willing to purchase. The difficulty is in getting to know that correlation. That’s why we test and track everything: To find out the correlation between people’s questions and their mindset.
In person-to-person interaction such strong correlations exist, too. I am pretty sure.
But similar to Google Adwords, it is difficult to learn that correlation.
And what makes it different to Google Adwords, is that in person-to-person interaction, you have way more information than just a few words: facial expression, your own gut feeling in reaction to subconscious minds communicating with each other, …
Also, costs in person-to-person interaction are often not financial costs but rather costs of your own personal energy in reaction to what people say or do, or the direct cost of time, or more indirect effects like word-of-mouth etc.
(And all of these things can also be a benefit: energy can rise, time can be well invested, word-of-mouth can be positive…)
***
Second thought:
If a person clearly tells you that he/she wants a payed consultation as in my example above, then that person is making the offer and you just have to say yes. Much easier than you making the offer to somebody who you don’t know whether he/she is interested.
Probably similar to the difference between cold-calling and getting people to contact you first.
***
Best wishes to you,
Chris
P.S.: Why am I thinking about that?
I think I may be in a similar situation like you some time in the future.
And feeling prepared for such situations removes some fears of success.
Perry,
As a fellow member “of the Planet,” kudos on the excellent execution of RM strategy and tactics. The results were exactly as would be predicted and expected to be shown.
To those unfamiliar, Perry has (from my view) intentionally deployed advanced techniques, which is only one more reason why you might want to continue to learn from Perry. He and his team are well-worth following, the information highly valuable.
Respective to MW’s post, interesting that you are negative towards Halbert, Kennedy and Ringer; and define arrogance relative to Perry when you apparently utilize the formers’ teachings on your own website — specifically billing yourself as “the foremost expert on sales process improvement” — sorry, never heard of you before now, but will seek to learn from your expertise in the future. Perhaps Perry is not alone by your and the dictionary’s defined parameters…?
Perry, thank you for your insights, lessons and information, that given freely as lead generation, and that by purchase. You don’t need me to tell you that you are a “Real Deal,”
but it is recognized by others.
Best Wishes to Your Continued Successes!
Perry: No Thank you. Sometimes that is all that is required. In some cultures it is considered rude to eat and not offer to share. If you do not wish to share “No, thank you” would be sufficient.
PS It is right to not give advice at these lunches, dinners and snacks.
PPS It is also your prerogative to keep is professional and avoid and “friendliness”
PPPS What you did was not “Bullshit” but your attitude about it did seem arrogant
i guess some people should’ve grow up, be an adult, and really learn how to take “no” for the answer.
grow up dude; it’s through getting hit by several “no-no’s” that you’ll eventually ended up with a couple “yes” for the answer.
just don’t take the answer ‘no’ personally, unless you would want to develop a terrible habit of resenting every single person on earth that says “no” to you, no matter how they say it.
and perry,… love your work man, they’re brilliant. better start saving some to learn from a gifted guru just like you:)
God bless.
I suspect you don’t realize just how GRATEFUL you should be to
have that many people WANTING to get acquainted with you, Perry.
I’m your fan since 1997, and won’t change that – but hey, all
you need to do to protect your time is say, “No, sorry” – NOT,
“Ok, but you’ll have to pay me $X”
That’s the bit that likely provoked Dennis to call you ‘greedy’.
What if all 100,000 were willing to pay you $725 – how would you
handle THAT?
Now think – what if NONE would?
“We are privileged to lead our tribe. For a while. After that,
they move on.” – Seth Godin.
Words to ponder.
All success
Dr.Mani
I was with you for about two-thirds of your response, Perry.
I’m a financial coach and I understand two of your points vividly: People don’t act on free advice and that you’re selling your time/expertise.
On the other hand, I’m often looking for good sources of information and referrals for my clients of all types. And to me that those people need to be amazing at what they do and compassionate about how they interact. And that’s where I feel this falls short. Not in the quality of what you’re saying, but in the tone.
Bunches of people have said similar things but this was a learning for me about what to say and where to say it. I’ve never heard of you before and was referred here by a professional organization primarily because one of our members was totally infuriated by your response to this letter.
So it’s a great reminder about flies and vinegar. I would love to see this handled more elegantly. Clearly from your following and their comments you have that ability. I hope you use it to make yourself and others shine.
Thank you,
Briana Cavanaugh
Perry,
I had a similar situation happen to me this past week. I am in Industrial Sales and a customer of mine called my manager and wanted to be assigned a new rep for his account. I have been in sales for 20 years in a lot of different industries and have never had this happen before. This particular customer was always negative, and I remember the last comment he made to me was “If you are looking to sell something you came to the wrong place”. Nothing gets a commission based sales person fired up like a comment like that! When I heard that I fired him in my mind and stopped going to see him.
Anyway, after several months of not seeing me he made the call to my manager. After my bruised ego healed I checked how much he had purchased from me in the last three years and it was $1,100. That is about $77 in commission I made from this account over three years! I had been there about six times and spent about an hour each visit there listening to how the world has screwed this guy. That is 12.83/hour this customer was worth. I spent more in gas getting to him than the customer was worth. I also usually left the account feeling depressed after listening to his “woe is me” tales.
Most everything that you said about the person that wrote the nasty gram to you was true about this guy, especially the fact about not respecting that my time has a real value to it.
I had never fired a customer before, but it sure felt great after it was done!
God Bless You!
Jeff Clear
Perry.
You have given many good “excuses” for your response to those requesting to pick your brain. However, only one was needed.
The truth is, as you mentioned, it is in their best interest that you charge them.
We all do what we do to serve the people we are meant to serve. However, far too often we forget about the best interests of the people we serve when we consider price.
It was not greed that led you to respond that way. What few people would understand, is that it was from a higher level of service that you responded that way. You know that their ROI would be greater if they made a serious commitment to change.
In professional services, there is nothing more important than customer loyalty. Customer loyalty can only be cultivated from Value. Value can only be measured by results. Results only happen when the student (customer; reader; colleague, employee, etc.) follows through.
If your students don’t follow through on your advice, then that $725/rate has very little value to you. You have wasted that hour. You could have been better served by not getting paid one cent for that hour and preparing for a meeting with a half hour client committed to following through.
Free advice has no value, as you stated in your response.
Whatever words of wisdom you shared with people at a free lunch would have no value. it would just be a nice social conversation. No notes, no recorders, simply a bunch of excited students who can’t wait to tell the world they had lunch with you.
As you know, it would have been a complete waste of time for all, including you.
PS- I once had an idea for a $100,000 coaching program. Not for my benefit, but for the benefit of the students. Can you imagine the results that would come out of a $100,000 investment? Can you imagine the big thinking that would generate? Can you imagine the overall effect on the people that would benefit from that kind of big thinking?
Happy Thanksgiving to you and all that read this.
Michael J Stone
Dear Perry
I agree with those who regard Dennis as a bit of a prat who can’t even write the English language properly. As you say, advice is what you sell and you wouldn’t expect shopkeepers to give away their retail goods. HOWEVER, from the length and defensiveness of your response, it is obvious his criticism got to you. If you really believe so strongly in the rightness of your position, all you needed to do was reply with a one-liner telling him he had a right to his views. It would have been much more dignified.